Some perspective for those who think Windows is intuitive or user-friendly

Today at work, I had someone ask me for help with a problem on her computer.

She said she had lost iTunes from her Start Menu and didn't know how to get it back. I double-checked with her that it was installed, and she said it was.

So I told her to click on My Computer and go to Local Disk C:\ and then click on Program Files and then iTunes.

Then I told her to drag the iTunes.exe file to the Start Menu. Before I could finish telling her to do that, she dragged it on top of the Start Menu button and then let go of the mouse.

I then told her to drag it again to the Start Menu and wait for the menu to expand, then keep holding on to the mouse button over All Programs and wait for that to expand and then let go once it's in the Start Menu where she wants it.

She was grateful to have it back.

I often see Windows power users here attempting to speak for "the average user" and proposing that the average user has no problems in Windows but would be baffled by Linux. I don't see that at all. My co-worker is not an idiot. I run into people like her all the time in various workplaces or through acquaintanceships or kinship. She is the average user, and computers to average users of all kinds are a mystical thing. None of it is intuitive to them.

I as a power user think it's "obvious" that getting something back into the Start Menu would be finding the location of the executable file and then dragging (without letting go of the mouse button) to the Start Menu, but why is that intuitive? Think about it. How would an average user know to do this?

Among the average users I know (not the power users who pretend to be average users and try to use reverse elitism to distance themselves from Linux "geeks"), there is rarely if ever any kind of basic understanding of how things work on the surface. I'm not talking about learning programming or bits and bytes. I'm talking about on the surface here. To my co-worker in the above example, everything is a step. Do this step. Do the next step. She doesn't think, "Oh, the executable file lives here. If I drag it to this other place, a shortcut icon will be created that will link back to the executable."

I see this a lot with people writing down instructions. Every time I've had to write down instructions for how to do something on a computer, it's because I had absolutely no concept of what was happening. Every time I watched someone do something and then was able to replicate the actions without writing down notes, it's because I understood the basic approach.

For example, when I first learned how to do a mail merge, I didn't have to take any notes, because I understand the basic concept: this Word document has the letter, and that Excel document has all the stuff that gets merged in (name, address, gender of recipient).

But when I learned pivot tables in Excel, I had to take furious notes, and even after I took notes, I still couldn't replicate what I saw in the lesson, because I had no concept of how the tables related to the data. It was like magic to me. I saw the end result. That's all I saw.

So let's please stop all the bull excrement about how Windows is intuitive and easy for "average users." What you as a Windows power user think of as intuitive is not intuitive at all to the average users you try to speak on behalf of.

And then she switched to Ubuntu and all was magical...

Anyway, no operating system is intuitive enough for the average user. You described how Windows isn't intuitive or user-friendly by demonstrating a simple problem with a difficult solution.

The same problem has a just as difficult solution in Ubuntu, for example. Say that, for some reason, a program is missing from the Applications menu on the top panel. You right-click the Applications menu and select "Edit Menus." Then you go to menu that the program would most likely be under. For convention, let's just say that the program is iTunes, despite the fact that iTunes doesn't have a Linux version. Sometimes, if you are lucky, the program will be in that menu, but will be unchecked. All you have to do is put a check in the box next to it and it will appear in the Applications for now on.

However, if it is not there, you need to click "New Item," type in the name of the program, and its command. If you don't know the name of the program, you can click Browse to find it. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Up until this point, Ubuntu is much more intuitive than Windows. However, with Windows, program executables are located in Program Files. In Ubuntu, however, they are found in /usr/bin. That really doesn't scream "this folder has programs in it!" to an average user.[/COLOR]

My point is, that if you present the same problem in both operating systems, one may seem more intuitive than the other but then backfires on itself by presenting a process that is less intuitive than it made itself out to be.

Now, if the problem was executing the program, Ubuntu would have been much more intuitive than Windows, because all the user has to do is press Alt-F2 and then type in the name of the programs. They would have typed "iTunes" and it would have shown up instantly. That isn't so easy in Windows.

I agree with you completely.

I don't think Ubuntu is intuitive either.

I think this is a problem that happens for all the "average users" out there for whatever system they're using. What ultimately ends up working for them is memorized steps that become familiar. Once something throws a wrench into those steps, they become paralyzed and need to ask a power user for help.

i suppose that whatever a person is using, is only intuitive or user-friendly, when it does in a simple and easy way what is required of it. as all users are different, there is always going to be a debate about what defines and constitutes user-friendly.

She should have hold alt key when she was dragging exe file, because otherwise Windows will move file to the location file is dragged instead of making shortcut there. Alternative is making shortcut separately and then moving it to start menu in second step. Moving exe files is generally not recommended. Executables are often made in such way that they expect other files in the same folder as they were run in, when moved they cannot find these files anymore. I believe this was common knowledge in Windows, not sure why you haven't mentioned this to your coworker if you consider yourself a 'power user'...

Next, I don't know what you intended to achieve with writing about this incident, it's not exactly strong argument against alleged user friendliness of Windows. It's a familiar 'it works for me' argument, or in this case 'it doesn't work for me'. You've found a problem in Windows. So what? Every system has weaknesses. It's just opinion of some that Windows is often easi_er_ to work with than Linux, that doesn't mean Windows is absolutely flawless, or that it's noob-proof, or even that Linux isn't better in some specific areas. Your argument doesn't go against this opinion, so again I don't know what you intended to achieve. I could write a load of similar incidents that go against Linux's friendliness if I wanted...

In this particular case your coworker probably accidentally moved itunes shortcut to random location where she couldn't find it anymore. Now some might argue Windows should nanny users and display warning message when user decides to remove shortcut from start menu, but then we have s*itload of noisy nuts that are totally p*ssed over 'annoying' UAC dialogs, so which group do you think MS should take into consideration when developing Windows?

I'm actually not criticizing Windows. I'm criticizing people who make it sound as if "average users" have no problems with Windows but would have a problem with Linux. My point is that most computer users have problems no matter what OS they use.

If you don't believe there are people who idealize Windows this way, browse through the Recurring Discussions subforum here some time.

Well when we are talking about "average users" we first have to agree what average is - is it a man that uses computer as a replacement for typewriter or one that knows his way around system, but doesn't have the knowledge of an average programmer?

Because for typewriter dude no system is easy, but for other people that are not complete greenhorns to computers I think Windows might be a bit easier. At least my experience tells me so, but if you use Linux only for browsing internet, reading emails and watching films and listening to music I'm prepared to agree that in this scenario Linux is very close to Windows. :)

I'd say the vast majority of computer users I know are the typewriter ones. The ones who know their way around their systems are power users and usually the ones typewriter ones ask for help.

Windows 'Power Users' (is that not an oxymoron?) always seem to find Linux unintuitive. They conveniently forget that they once found Windows itself to be unintuitive, before they learned the hallowed Microsoft way they revere and preach about so much.

Many seasoned Windows veterans call anything that is not the Microsoft way, unintuitive. That is their entire world view and nothing that anybody says or does will dissuade them otherwise.

All operating systems are unintuitive to the average person at first. But to single out modern Linux distributions such as Ubuntu as difficult, then in the same breath say that Windows is transparent (pun intended) is FUD.

Microsoft has done a good job of brainwashing an entire generation of computer users. I think what irks them and their true believers is that most Linux users come from their own ranks.

Giant Speck said: However, if it is not there, you need to click "New Item," type in the name of the program, and its command. If you don't know the name of the program, you can click Browse to find it. [COLOR=DarkRed]Up until this point, Ubuntu is much more intuitive than Windows. However, with Windows, program executables are located in Program Files. In Ubuntu, however, they are found in /usr/bin. That really doesn't scream "this folder has programs in it!" to an average user.[/color]

At this point it doesn't matter. When you're talking paths the average user glazes over. Now ask yourself, which is easier to convey over the phone?

Type in "C:\Program Files\itunes\itunes.exe" Or...

Type in /usr/bin/itunes. Or...

Type in /u tab b tab it tab.

None of those are intuitive but two of them are a far sight easier to get right the first time.

rockface said: All operating systems are unintuitive to the average person at first.

This is not true. The problem is intuitive is a loaded word. Many people take it to mean "The uninformed should be able to use with no trouble." That is not what it means. From M-W...

1d: readily learned or understood.  <software with an intuitive interface>

Readily learned. Most people don't put the effort in to learning anything then call it unintuitive. IE, if they put no effort into learning they have no measure to judge the intuitiveness of that which they denounce as unintuitive.

Also based on that definition I contend that Linux is more intuitive than Windows for the simple fact that Linux is far more internally consistent than Windows ever will be. The unix basics I learned almost two decades ago still serve me in good stead today whereas two decades ago all the knowledge I gained of DOS and Win 3.1 are now utterly useless. Heck, I have aliases and scripts I wrote almost 20 years ago I still use to this day. Because of this foundation and internal consistency I am able to intuit new features and programs because they mostly follow that same internal consistency. Sometimes I can't even configure two versions of Windows using the same set of instructions that all start with "Click on the Start Menu..." :confused:

Part of the problem is that alot of people don't care about their computer and just want to be able to run their apps. It isn't so much of an issue of whether the interface is intuitive or not as being scared of the computer, teaching themselves bad habits, then getting stuck with those habits. My first computer was a commodore64 and I knew from a very early age in order to play a game on it I needed to type load "name of game",8 ,1 but it took me about a year or so of experimenting to find out exactly *why* I needed to type that command in that specific format. If it weren't for the fact I was curious and did a lot of experimentation I probably would have continued to run that command by rote for as long as I had that computer instead of learning what it meant and being able to modify/create my own commands. This is true of people with more modern computers. They get a system, turn it on, feel a little nervous they'll break something so they are careful with their experimentation. They learn *a* way of doing something either by themselves or from someone else and then blindly follow that method by rote memorization. As an example I encounter a lot of people that do not understand the difference between typing an address into an address bar and doing a google search. They are very familiar with google (or yahoo, MSN, etc.) which is always their home page and can get to the websites they're interested in by doing various searches and navigating through weblinks but have absolutely no clue where the address bar is located or how to use it to go directly to a specific page.

RoyalShrubber said: Well when we are talking about "average users" we first have to agree what average is - is it a man that uses computer as a replacement for typewriter or one that knows his way around system, but doesn't have the knowledge of an average programmer?

Because for typewriter dude no system is easy, but for other people that are not complete greenhorns to computers I think Windows might be a bit easier. At least my experience tells me so, but if you use Linux only for browsing internet, reading emails and watching films and listening to music I'm prepared to agree that in this scenario Linux is very close to Windows. :) I don't think there is an "average user". Everyone has their own needs.

I don't know...I think the line between USER and POWER USER can be fuzzy, but for the most part, tasks like adding iTunes to the Start menu are wading into that blurry pool.

A basic user can be counted on to learn basics like mouse navigation and clicking icons to get the result they want.

Any task that takes them into changing preferences or making customizations outside of a "wizard" dialog puts them across that fuzzy line of "power user". Because Linux users appreciate the ability of Linux to be easily customized, they tend to view these types of administrative tasks as living in user space as well...but they aren't really.

The intuitive elements of Windows happen to be shared with Macs and most DEs for linux...the most basic of which is the concept that pointing a mouse and clicking some object with have some type of effect.

Having introduced Ubuntu to several senior customers, the concept of windows was immediately apparent to them, however, the SKILL of clicking, double-clicking and click-drag took them a long time to master. Once they got these basic skills down, they are ready to explore many more options.

Contrary to Apple's model, my seniors had no trouble mastering multi-button mice with click wheels.

Just my opinion.

In India, lots of people learn to use Linux computers before they even see Windows.

A member of Ubuntu Forums had a great quote in their signature. It was "The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything afterwards is learnt."