Perhaps Linux isn't such a great concept.

This is going to sound trollish and perhaps I should have warmed up with something less contensious .... like the non existance of god or something. BTW:- this is a conceptual argument. not a request for help.

As a musician I have noticed that drummers always never use the internet. They go from band to band, gig to gig. The can drop into a new band easy because they never play out of tune. They have no need for technology. They are drummers. They drum. Similarly, singers usually know nothing about microphones. They sing. That's what they do. Anything else is a distraction, a deviation from their path.

A few minutes ago I read a post that asked "where are all the audio players in KDE" the answer came back "write one". It struck me that this encapsulated the problem. On one side you have the people who want to use software to get on with their main concern, being a musician, or an architect, or whatever. One the other side you have the programmers ace code writers but they know little about engieering stresses, and they think that everyone should know the ins and outs of the OS first.

6 weeks ago I started to install music software a whined to a friend that it didn't work right away and that there was no documentation, I needed to configure my system without knowing what to configure or how. He said knowingly that most of the people who would use it in Ubuntu would know about Ubuntu. Well perhaps I don't. I'm a bass player. I want to play bass. Using software is a divertion from my goal. Haveing to learn configuration is a barrier to using it, and from what I see the available software is less capable than what I was using 10 years ago in Win 95.

Why should it be? Why does music software even exist in Linux? There is no incentive to develop it but also the programmers are not musicians, so how would they know what I need? And no one is writing the manuals. While Ubunto apps as written by hobbyists it will always be this way. And thats a pity because it was a good idea and some PCs are being sold pre installed with Ubuntu. Hatred of all things MS is not sufficient to made Linux mainstream. So how is it going to jump from querky hobby to everyday plug and play?

We aren't here because we hate all things MS.

There are many reasons why people use Linux kernel based distributions.

I see you are using Ubuntu Studio, it should be more along the lines of what you are looking for.

Music is a complex subject on any OS, Linux certainly is no exception.

All of us knew nothing about Linux, Windows, OSX, or whatever, when we started down the whatever path.

My wife uses Sibelius as her primary music app' under OS X. It took her many months to master that software.

You sure make a good point. Programmers don't always know the needs of the users and they can easily fall into needs of the programmer instead of the user. Something that is obvious for the developper doesn't mean it is obvious for the user.

I didn't look at your topic about music players but I *think* the comment "where are all the audio players in KDE" was more meant as a sort of inside joke rather than being inpolite because there are hundreds of music players for linux

There are subdivisions in what many people consider to be the *programming* world.

In reality, the programmer plays the part of coding the pre-designed software. Very often those that design the software don't contribute any code to the project at all.

There are architects & administrators higher up the hierarchy than programmers. Admittedly they usually have had at least an education in programming.

I am a retired professional musician.

I agree that software should be easy to use.

But one must also acquire skills that make using new software intuitive.

If you don't want to enter a learning curve, then simply go buy a Roland Dr. Beat or other programmable drum machine and move on.

If you feel that you have to fight technology to get to your end result, then take another route.

When I was playing, I would spend weeks setting up a new rig if there were a new piece of hardware and getting it right. For a particular tour, I may have to listen to a record from an artist that I was unfamiliar with and try and emulate a specific guitar sound just to keep my job. It comes with the territory.

If you are going to remain competitive in this day and age, you must learn to embrace technology because it won't get any easier as time goes along.

Remember when you were first starting to play and you did what many of us refer to as "woodshedding"? Is essence, you take your guitar into a wood shed and play where no one can hear you or bother you until you get it right. Until you can play.

Well, maybe it's time to "woodshed" with your PC and some new software.

I am 44 years old and have been playing for 35 years, professionally since I was 16. I have seen technology come and go and players get bogged down in technology. If you want to play, then play. Take the easiest way for you to get to your end goal.

If you just need a drum machine for a click track for rehearsing, a drum machine may be what you need to buy.

If you are recording and need a drum machine for a track, then searching Google and other forums for drum machine software may be your path.

Look at this link for a drum machine on your PC:

http://www.hydrogen-music.org/

Good luck. Post some .mp3's of your work. I'd like to hear it.

EDIT:

Also try this forum for further suggestions:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=335

even if you were right in that linux is crap in the area of music creativity, to go on and say linux is not a great concept overall is ridiculous just because it's not good in one individual area you should not encompass the whole OS with your opinions, look at windows and mac, both are rubbish in certain areas.

you not like linux then fine just move on.

My advice: If you want a brilliant plug & play OS that is taylor made for people who just want to *use* their computers: buy a Mac.

If you want an uber customisable OS that gives power over your computer back to you: stick with Linux and enjoy the rush of endorphins that only the Terminal can give but be prepared to put the extra effort in when your desires are out of your immediate reach.

The thing is that people write software they want to use *themselves*. So

..but also the programmers are not musicians, so how would they know what I need?

is not true I think. People need a program, there isn´t one yet, so they start coding. I have never seen someone programming on an applications they don´t use themselves.

While Ubunto apps as written by hobbyists it will always be this way.

At the moment there are not many commercial apps for Ubuntu but I bet that will change. For example we have Adobe Flex, Nero Burner, Maya, Maple, Matlab, and many other specialist software written for Linux/Ubuntu. When Ubuntu gets a little bit more mainstream I think the commercial music software will come to us.

Well, well, well... I think OSX is the best choice for you then. Linux is still premature so far (remember the IBM ad), it's not ready to be applied for everything on earth. Dave Gilmour uses Apple for instance. He's a musician, he's not a computer geek like us. Yet, most people use Linux not because they want to do it, but because they HAVE to do it.

Handy, sorry if I lumped all the people concerned with generating software under one heading. Its true that we all need to learn an amount of OS to run our systems, however I migrated from DOS 3 to Win 3.11 to Win 95 to 98 to WinXP without completely loosing the plot. Your answer assumes that expert knowledge is the norm. My point was:- I can't recall ever having to wait 6 weeks to run a program. I'm reasonably intelligent. If I can't do it, other people will have similar problems. Music is not the only specialist application. How do we get to "mainstream" without full-time paid for projects?

edit> People need a program, there isn´t one yet, so they start coding. I have never seen someone programming on an applications they don´t use themselves. Most people who need a program CAN'T write code, and don't want to either.

Nu music project said: How do we get to "mainstream" without full-time paid for projects?

Why do we need to get to "mainstream"? I don't care about linux becoming "mainstream" -- I just need it to be popular enough for hardware manufacturers to provide linux drivers, that's all I need.

Also, if it works better for your purposes you should, by all means, use Windows.

Uhm, you're trying to argue against a simple fact. That is, people who can code generally contribute to projects of their interests. This means, for you to have your desired application, you would need to either:

• Write your own code if you're capable
• Find a programmer that shares your interests (possibly a musician too)
• Guide a willing programmer (who has little to no knowledge with regards to creating music) to work with you in creating your desired application

In short, you can participate in a number of ways. But if you cannot be bothered to do any of these options then you will have to wait for someone else who's more willing.

Perhaps Linux isn't such a great concept because it encourages you to take part in the action, when you would rather be a customer. One who's willing (or demanding) to receive products and services for free.

Nu music project said: There is no incentive to develop it but also the programmers are not musicians, so how would they know what I need?

I'm taking computer science in college and I play guitar in a band. What makes you so sure no developer plays music?

Nu music project said: Why should it be? Why does music software even exist in Linux? There is no incentive to develop it but also the programmers are not musicians

Oh yes they are :P (Jokosher is still a young project, but it's quite awesome. Brought to you in part by our own Jono Bacon). Actually, I've noticed that a disproportionate number of programmers also are musicians, at least in some way. Makes sense, since both tasks involve a lot of spatial thinking. Who knows? Maybe you'll be better at it than you think.

As for the issue you are discussing, that is why commercial software exists. The "built because the developer needed it" type of free software is interesting because it is released in the thought that a community could contribute back to it, making it even more useful at little cost since it wasn't going to be sold anyway.

Then the "built for others" type of free software is a different field entirely. I disagree with your belief that it is impossible. The GNOME project, for example, makes lots of decisions based on the world around it instead of the proprietary opinions of those in the know. It is intent on being easy, user friendly and understandable to those who are not expert computer users. That isn't catering to the awesome programmers working on it; that's work for average users who just want to get things done.

Finally, programmers are not a natural resource. There are all sorts of ways to build computer software. One of them is hiring a developer who is happy to work for money. However, a programmer (and I bet you think the same way being a musician) vastly prefers working on something he likes. See, for example, the difference in quality between most tax software / virus scanner front-ends and most games. A programmer even more prefers working on something he chose to work on himself. (Again, there are some remarkably polished independent games out there, and the quality of a lot of free software is another example). So yes, the best way to get something that works right is to do it yourself, or at least nail together a concept; show how a music editor could be superbly amazing and someone may be interested in helping with it.

Bottom line is there is nothing broken here because free software (outside of big-GPLed stuff) is not excluding other possibilities of getting things done.

handy said: Very often those that design the software don't contribute any code to the project at all.

Actually, one of the biggest problems in Linux development is that programmers do design software and there are very few software designers non-programmers that work in the free software arena; mainly because they're scarce and very high paid professionals.

M. Shuttleworth has brought a little hope to the matter when he announced he would be hiring professional usability experts and designers. We haven't seen it materialzed yet but I keep my fingers crossed.

fwojciec said: Why do we need to get to "mainstream"? I don't care about linux becoming "mainstream" -- I just need it to be popular enough for hardware manufacturers to provide linux drivers, that's all I need.

Also, if it works better for your purposes you should, by all means, use Windows. I was missing this classic (how tiring, really).

1- Be careful when you go from "I" to "we". "You" represent just yourself. There are a hundred reasons why WE need to go mainstream, while none of each might matter to YOU. Once you understand the difference you should stop posting nonsense.

2- No one needs your permission for using Windows. If you have a positive advice for the OP, go ahead. If you have any contribution about how to make Linux easier for musicians, put it on the table. But if your only idea is the linux-elite classic "go away and go back to Windows", you should rather save it for yourself, since it doesn't help the OP or anyone else and only makes the community you belong to look idiotic.

Nu music project said:

Why should it be? Why does music software even exist in Linux? There is no incentive to develop it but also the programmers are not musicians, so how would they know what I need? And no one is writing the manuals. While Ubunto apps as written by hobbyists it will always be this way. And thats a pity because it was a good idea and some PCs are being sold pre installed with Ubuntu. Hatred of all things MS is not sufficient to made Linux mainstream. So how is it going to jump from querky hobby to everyday plug and play?

I do see what you are getting at, but you post does seem a bit selfish. here's the way i look at it:

A programmer somewhere saw the need for some type of music software. on their own initiative he/she researched the area in question as best as they could then spent probably thousands of manhours, taken from their personal lives to put working code together, further to which went through all the hoops of getting ones software into the repos, or hosted on a website or whatever. Any expense thus far absorbed by the programmer. This complicated music software is made available to you for free.

You, end user, come along, connect to repos download free software and proceed to complain.

I do feel that the community as a whole would benefit from more documentation in some areas but the point remains that it is members of the same community that have to help out to achieve this.

In this case, why don't you, a bass player contact the dev and contribute to the software in question, give a musicians point of view and help to further enhance the community ?

Or would you prefer to wait for someone else to contribute hours of their life to documentation, so you can just play bass.

Anyone happening across this post, PLEASe read:

http://www.arachnoid.com/freeware/index.html

Nu music project, you say "Perhaps Linux isn't such a great concept." You mean Linux is a bad concept 'cause you can't drum using it? Ridiculous, don't you think? ;)

RiceMonster said: I'm taking computer science in college and I play guitar in a band. What makes you so sure no developer plays music?

Exact same for me, except I play bass. :P

Actually, I think Linux has one of the best WYSIWYG score editors available for educators, called NtEd. As a Music student, I love it, and my music teacher's old Noteworthy program is starting to lack now for her and me (she plays at gigs as well as teaches music). Unfortunately, though, NtEd uses ALSA for midi playback, so it can't be ported to other Operating Systems which don't use it (like Mac OS X and Windows).

why should vocalists know how to mess with microphones when there are so many anal retentive guitarists around to do it for them?

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/MULTITRACK_RECORDING http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/LOOP_GROOVE_MAKERS/ http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/MOD_TRACKERS_PLAYERS/ http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/PLUGINS_OTHER/ http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/CSOUND/

thats only at one site and there is more there.

And for your Drum machine

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/DRUMS_PERCUSSION/freeware/

On any OS some software needs to be setup. And as with most Software, you need to learn it.

Nu music project said:

A few minutes ago I read a post that asked "where are all the audio players in KDE" the answer came back "write one". It struck me that this encapsulated the problem.

I don't know what the definition of "audio player" is for that poster, but I assume that the music maker inside of you responded to that. I agree that the answer may sound harsh, but with Linux at least you can get the tools to program your own software for free, perhaps that's the DYI suggestion which was included in that answer.

I also agree with some other comments here, Apple is a good choice for your music-recording, as well as it is for DTP and video-editing.

Apart from that I think the concept of Linux itself is radically new in computer-history, but it's still as a little child. It's not comparable with Apple, where the company Apple delivers both hardware and software, and makes it much easier for software-developers to deliver commercial products for.

It's funny you mentioned that I was looking for an open source audio editor to compliment my (music) keyboard), and found LMMS. It's abslutely fantastic, and completely contradicts your point. For me, it feels like LMMS was made by music engineers and musicians.

That KDE post and reply here:-http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1022645 Forgive me for daring to ASK A QUESTION. Most of you have reinforced what I have experienced since I have been looking at this forum. The general feeling I get is "unless you are a programmer, you shouldn't be using Linux. Linux is for Linux developers".

My point is that this is an insular approach that will hold back development. If the functionality of Linux continues to lag behind windows it will always be a geeky little backwater.

NEWS FLASH:- several stores are offering Notebooks and laptops with Linux pre-installed. The blurb on the web is that several countries' governments are using it. (what drew me was:- its fast, stable, works, and has great apps.). Its out there already, so it has to work. If it doesn't, it will be the *product* that everyone tried but didn't like, and it will die and remembered as a failure.

I stated in the original post that > this is a conceptual argument. not a request for help.Lets leave my own quest and the subject of music out of this. There are loads of specialist apps that could be using linux. [CENTER]but it has to work and be good[/CENTER]

Its great that so many developers are musicians, however I'm not a developer who plays. I'm a Production Engineer who plays. I don't know how a kernel works and I can't even find out how to write one. I bought the Linux bible and it was completely useless to me. I can't contribute like that. I can't build my own, and I can't take a year out to learn. Maybe I could write documentation. Possibly contribute to the forum. [CENTER]but it has to work first[/CENTER] (I can operate most software with, or without a manual.) ................ and there are potentially thousands of people like me. As the ranks swell there will be more ideas and more contribution, but they won't stay unless it works, so ya need a different plan involving revenue. I don't know how to do that. Maybe donations or making some apps non free for a certain time.

So forgive me for asking if there is a better way to expand the OS that everyone should have. I'll leave you to chat...... amongst yourselves?

I like how you think, but.... I don't I don't know any way to counteract that thought, even though I disagree with it... The only thing I can say is that is all depends on what you want. Actually, I guess the only way I can disagree is this: Lets say all of this was simple, then that could mean that everybody would be perfect. The the world would be boring. That is all I can think of.

Hmmmm..... 3v4n

Nu music project said:

Its great that so many developers are musicians, however I'm not a developer who plays. I'm a Production Engineer who plays. I don't know how a kernel works and I can't even find out how to write one. I bought the Linux bible and it was completely useless to me. I can't contribute like that. I can't build my own, and I can't take a year out to learn. Maybe I could write documentation. Possibly contribute to the forum. [CENTER]but it has to work first[/CENTER] ---cut--- So forgive me for asking if there is a better way to expand the OS that everyone should have. I'll leave you to chat...... amongst yourselves?

You're asking too much from Linux right now I think.

Governments do switch to Linux, but not for the shiny commercial music-player apps that (don't) run on Linux.

Let me tell you something. Years ago I worked in a commercial place where they only had Apple machines with people using Adobe software. The manager had this dream/obsession of using a 100% open source file-server for that, and that's were I worked on (with FreeBSD). Unfortunately I had to discover that Apple had some nasty bugs in MacOSX at that time, and therefore I needed to use the command-line on those apples from time to time. They had the O'Reilly MacOSX bible there, I've glanced through it, and .. I was pissed off. It was almost pretty useless to me at the time. Apple has based Darwin (The base of MacOSX) on BSD, but at the same time they've made basic commands like "adduser" or "useradd" have very different parameters. That was a terrible discovery for me at that time. What should I have done with that ? Blame Apple that it's not ready for simple file sharing usage in a LAN and trying to be as incompatible with open source alternatives as possible ?

And by the way, thanks for posting the links to the remark you referred to. The comment said "That you're free to make your own." http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1022645 Which you referred to as "go make your own".

I don't see anything bad in the "That you're free to make your own." remark. And yes, I'm talking also to the OP of this thread, not just among "ourselves".

60 million+ users use linux around the world. Most, like myself, can't program an iota of code. It manages to fill all my computing needs though.

I'm sorry that your selected software doesn't fill all your needs currently. I sincerely hope you stick around long enough for that to change.

'Geeky lil' backwater'. you called me a geek man. Thanks :)

Nu music project said: however I migrated from DOS 3 to Win 3.11 to Win 95 to 98 to WinXP without completely loosing the plot.

It is a sensible (MS) business practice not to alienate existing customers when launching new products.

Likewise, you can easily migrate from Ubuntu 7.04 to 7.10 to 8.04 etc. And also move from a Saab 900 to a 9-3 etc.

60 million+ users use linux around the world. Most, like myself, can't program an iota of code. It manages to fill all my computing needs though.

I am always amused by the view that Linux users are programmers or hackers.

The suggestion that Linux (essentially FOSS) is not a good concept can be argued forever. In fact, I'm sure it has already.

Remember that Linux is a community project.

If the type of software you need doesn't exist, all that matters is to begin to create what you need, if it is that important for you.

If you can't program, then befriend some geeky programmers, discuss your ideas, or submit ideas for improving some of the existing applications.

You can do anything once you know what it is, and set your mind to it.

BGFG said: 60 million+ users use linux around the world. Most, like myself, can't program an iota of code. It manages to fill all my computing needs though.

Excuse me. I know that statistics in the mass media references "about > 95 % of the computer users is MS Windows user" is pretty flawed. They're either counts from sales, or website visitor based, which is also unreliable because a lot of people are forced to use MS-Windows at work and some people fake the "web agent" in their browser for IE-only webpages.

So.. where is your 60 million+ Linux users coming from ? I read that Ubuntu has an estimated > 8 million users. Can you give any sources for that ? :)

Well I just want to throw in my point of view... and a little information about myself.

I am a musician and a sound engineer (or whatever title one would feel appropriate). We use a mac in our studio mainly because my drummer is the main tech and he wasn't trained in linux, but when I am at home and feel like writing music via a multitrack application, I use an analogue mixer hooked straight to the sound card.

Now honestly you can't jump into foreign waters and expect it to feel the same... in fact you don't just jump into the water and expect to instantly swim.

My point is that Linux takes time to get used to. I've been using it for more than 2-3 years now and I'm at the point where the fine line between 'easy plug-n-play operating systems' like windows and Linux is fading. I find it easier and faster to handle audio utilities like Jack thru the command line than to search thru icons on the windows (or OS X) to find the FireStudio control panel. I find it easier and more convenient to download software from repositories than to search online or install from portable medias.

So ask yourself... is it that Linux isn't such a great concept.. or is it that people who expect the same experience from any system to be the same experience the problem?

Take your time to learn Linux. Check out Ardour Audio Workstation for linux. But, don't be lazy and theorize a concept that it isn't a great idea because one is too lazy to learn and adapt. :lolflag:

Nu music project said: The general feeling I get is "unless you are a programmer, you shouldn't be using Linux. Linux is for Linux developers".

I'm not a programmer, but since I started using linux (about a year and a half ago) I've learned how to write bash scripts and such. The vast majority of people who use linux are not programmers.

Nu music project said: Its out there already, so it has to work. If it doesn't, it will be the *product* that everyone tried but didn't like, and it will die and remembered as a failure.

Linux is not a product. True, some companies, like Canonical, have a vested interest in Linux becoming more product-like and more mainstream, since it would mean that they make more money, but this doesn't change the fact that Linux as such is pretty much independent of market forces and doesn't need to be viable as a business the same way commercial OSs must be in order to survive. This is one of the main reasons why I use Linux, for example, since the logic of the "largest common denominator" is not necessarily decisive around here, which is great.

You are approaching the whole issue like a dissatisfied customer -- which is kind of absurd since nobody here gets paid to make sure you're satisfied. Or do you perhaps think that making threads on a forum is somehow going to make us all see the light, change our ways and finally solve the problem? I mean, think about it.

Nu music project said: That KDE post and reply here:-http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1022645

Forgive me for daring to ASK A QUESTION. Most of you have reinforced what I have experienced since I have been looking at this forum. The general feeling I get is "unless you are a programmer, you shouldn't be using Linux. Linux is for Linux developers". ...... So forgive me for asking if there is a better way to expand the OS that everyone should have. I'll leave you to chat...... amongst yourselves?

Bye.

BTW-Linux is a community. What is polite is to give back to the community as you are able. You can't code, so what? Neither can many people, I personally cannot. I have come here in the past to get and read help when I was stumped, and I return the gesture as I am able to Clueless Linux Young'uns who are in over their head. I report bugs to devs as I find them. I'm more comfortable with hardware issues than software issues. But that is me. BTW-I'm also a professional musician working on my master's too.

Linux is a community-not a business, there are no customers with a right to byotch about things not working on tech support hold lines in India after they paid $400 for a warranty and $1000 for their OS that isn't what they want. There are grumpy users, yes; there are people who come here and byotch-but they seldom get help....why? Because no one is paid to give help here (for the most part), folks come here because they want to help. When they see ungrateful posters-they feel rightfully no need to stick their nose out.

If you have an Idea or a problem, post a note to Ubuntu or devs. The ONLY way people bother writing software for free is if they know someone wants and if they are in the mood for a challenge. Devs cannot read users minds-and they only know something is lacking when it is called to their attention--this board is unlikely to be a source to get communications to devs.

Nu music project said:

Its great that so many developers are musicians, however I'm not a developer who plays. I'm a Production Engineer who plays. I don't know how a kernel works and I can't even find out how to write one. I bought the Linux bible and it was completely useless to me. I can't contribute like that. I can't build my own, and I can't take a year out to learn. Maybe I could write documentation. Possibly contribute to the forum. [CENTER]but it has to work first[/CENTER] (I can operate most software with, or without a manual.) ................ and there are potentially thousands of people like me. As the ranks swell there will be more ideas and more contribution, but they won't stay unless it works, so ya need a different plan involving revenue. I don't know how to do that. Maybe donations or making some apps non free for a certain time.

So forgive me for asking if there is a better way to expand the OS that everyone should have. I'll leave you to chat...... amongst yourselves?

So you ignored my post then?

Well, of course you'll think that if you ignore the evidence :P.

chucky chuckaluck said: why should vocalists know how to mess with microphones when there are so many anal retentive guitarists around to do it for them?

I couldn't have said that better myself.

Nu music project said: Handy,

sorry if I lumped all the people concerned with generating software under one heading. Its true that we all need to learn an amount of OS to run our systems, however I migrated from DOS 3 to Win 3.11 to Win 95 to 98 to WinXP without completely loosing the plot. Your answer assumes that expert knowledge is the norm.

Well not, really. As I had previously mentioned, my wife who is also very intelligent, dedicated & conscientious took many months to master the Sibelius software package.

Often learning complex software is similar to learning to play an instrument, but in a smaller time scale, as it can take a long time, & music software due to the huge variety of areas that it can try to integrate can be extremely complex.

My wife knows Sibelius, if she for whatever reason had to convert to using Finale she again would have a huge task in front of her, because she would have to learn a completely different system to do many of the same things that were in Sibelius, second nature to her.

Learning new things is hard, & I think I can safely say it gets harder as we get older. :-)

albinootje said: Excuse me. I know that statistics in the mass media references "about > 95 % of the computer users is MS Windows user" is pretty flawed.

They're either counts from sales, or website visitor based, which is also unreliable because a lot of people are forced to use MS-Windows at work and some people fake the "web agent" in their browser for IE-only webpages.

So.. where is your 60 million+ Linux users coming from ? I read that Ubuntu has an estimated > 8 million users. Can you give any sources for that ? :)

Ahh, but goodly sir :) i said Linux didn't i ? not just ubuntu :popcorn: as i consider all red hat and debian when i speak of linux. This is the global community i speak of :)

sicofante said: Actually, one of the biggest problems in Linux development is that programmers do design software and there are very few software designers non-programmers that work in the free software arena; mainly because they're scarce and very high paid professionals.

Yes I agree, my answer was not complete. My description was more in fitting with the way commercial or in house corporate software is developed. Such as IBM does for one of their corporate customers. This I know as my nephew is an architect for IBM.

On another tack, the very popular Sibelius software was created by two brothers who are musicians. They sold Sibelius approx' 2 years ago after developing it into a magnificently useful tool for composers, arrangers, teachers & students.

Yes I believe that using Linux automatically makes you a "nerd" a "know it all". And to get anywhere you need to be a "nerd". You see if Fred wanted something in Linux the only way he could get it is by hanging out in Linux forums, learning c++ and go to UDS and other things like that. Now someone said about the Pidgin Application...

Look guys Pidgin is definitely epic fail because it does not support my AIM well it does but without locking up!

Then someone that was not affiliated with Pidgin Project but might be what you would call a "freethinker" said...

Yes well we never see you at UDS you say all this sh about Linux but I have never see your fat a write a single line of code well apart from that Dashboard Widget but come on that's from the suck OS X by Crapple

This man makes fun of Apple who is a UNIX hardware vendor (someone you should praise) and makes fun of the person because they do not see him at something called UDS. You see if Apple heard the 1st man complain about iChat Apple might fix it. That's why it's good to have company's. Because with freedom you have responsibility. And both these men were responsible in what they say and did and what they said and do?

I appreciate that Linux has a learning curve, some distributions more than others, but EVERYTHING MUST be learned. To all the musicians who have posted, i tried to learn the guitar and gave up. I wasn't patient enough. (and my father annoyed me greatly:))

I did not however, give up, then proceed to find guitarists' forums, and proceed to point out the 'engineering shortcomings' of the guitar and put that forward as the reason i can't riff 'Smoke on the water'. I mean really.

BGFG said: Ahh, but goodly sir :) i said Linux didn't i ? not just ubuntu :popcorn: as i consider all red hat and debian when i speak of linux. This is the global community i speak of :)

Yes :)

I wrote : "So.. where is your 60 million+ Linux users coming from ?" Your evidence please..

handy said: Learning new things is hard, & I think I can safely say it gets harder as we get older. :-)

You look do old on your avatar photo. But I agree, alcohol and getting older makes it more difficult to learn new things. :D

macintosh said: Yes I believe that using Linux automatically makes you a "nerd" a "know it all". And to get anywhere you need to be a "nerd". You see if Fred wanted something in Linux the only way he could get it is by hanging out in Linux forums, learning c++ and go to UDS and other things like that. Now someone said about the Pidgin Application...

Then someone that was not affiliated with Pidgin Project but might be what you would call a "freethinker" said...

This man makes fun of Apple who is a UNIX hardware vendor (someone you should praise) and makes fun of the person because they do not see him at something called UDS. You see if Apple heard the 1st man complain about iChat Apple might fix it. That's why it's good to have company's. Because with freedom you have responsibility. And both these men were responsible in what they say and did and what they said and do?

So you prefer a company to a community?

BGFG said: I appreciate that Linux has a learning curve, some distributions more than others, but EVERYTHING MUST be learned. To all the musicians who have posted, i tried to learn the guitar and gave up. I wasn't patient enough. (and my father annoyed me greatly:))

I did not however, give up, then proceed to find guitarists' forums, and proceed to point out the 'engineering shortcomings' of the guitar and put that forward as the reason i can't riff 'Smoke on the water'. I mean really.

I play guitar since I was a teenager. It was hard in the beginning, but I couldn't live without it anymore.

Maybe the guitar wasn't for you. Maybe you should try this instead :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY_HV977TE

Pretty awesome imho.

albinootje said: Yes :)

I wrote : "So.. where is your 60 million+ Linux users coming from ?" Your evidence please..

I've been scouring for that site where i came across that estimated (i admit) info. crap :) raincheque ?

albinootje said: I play guitar since I was a teenager.

It was hard in the beginning, but I couldn't live without it anymore.

Maybe the guitar wasn't for you. Maybe you should try this instead :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY_HV977TE

Pretty awesome imho.

I had the 'While my guitar gently weeps' clip saved on my machine. He is indeed insane.

Check this guy:

http://www.erikmongrain.com/Multimedia.asp?Page=AirTap

I think *Nu music project* made a good point. I am using Linux myself because I believe in the OpenSource concept and because I need it as an IT professional. But I fall back to Windows when Linux doesn't offer the functions I need. For example, I am still looking fot a DJ mixing tool like *Traktor* for Linux. Have not found any yet.

So we see that there are complex programs that take a lot of effort to code, especially in the era of media production. And they are not offered for free. Consider Adobe - no major OpenSource projects so far. People who code should be able to earn money for their work. I acknowledge this.

We simply have to accept that *some *professional (commercial) software might not be free and might not be ported to Linux.

On the other hand - programs like Firefox and Thunderbird, OpenOffice, Samba, Apache, Wordpress, Typo3 and many many more are *poster child OpenSource projects* that offer superior quality compared to closed source applications. I think that a lot of other programs will follow.

If I need quality I'd sometimes have to spend some money for it. Unfortunately, software companies have not discovered Linux users as customers for proprietary software.

If I'd be able to get *Photoshop* or *Traktor* for Linux, I'd finally be able to leave Windows. I would pay for this software without hesitating. But this will not happen so soon. Anyway: For web developing needs, you can be absolutely lucky with Linux. And that's fine.

I guess I should start blaming Windows entirely because I don't like many of the newest games that are out. Or maybe I should judge OSX as completely unredeemable and inferior trash because someone hasn't written a statistical analysis program I like for it. This is a case where you should blame the program, or the lack thereof of one, and not the OS itself.

Use rose garden:popcorn: