Should I go for a Macbook?

Around June I may consider getting a Macbook.

These are some of the things that I look for in an OS:

Ease of use Ease of installing software Customization Gaming (mainly older things like Quake II and III and Jedi Knight 3) Free/Open Source application variety Speed

These are some of the things, though not everything. I quit using Windows about a year ago, and I do not want to touch it again after I have been using Ubuntu, openSuSE, and an occasional Mac.

I love Macbooks a lot. How simple is it to install and work Ubuntu/other distro on a Macbook? Does the hardware "just work" for Linux on a Macbook? I use HP Pavilion laptop that used to run Vista. Ubuntu worked on it flawlessly out of the box, 100%; I did not have to fix/configure anything at all. Would this be the same for installing Ubuntu on a Macbook?

Do I *need* OS X? The main reasons I feel I would like to try OS X is for more gaming support as well as more overall system support. Most things nowadays are catered to Windows or Mac, or both. Not a whole lot for Linux. Would OS X suffice as a Windows alternative that I could use to dual boot with Linux?

I hear WINE does not work well on OS X. Is this true?

Most importantly, am I better off just sticking with Linux?

These are just a few things I am looking at. Sorry if things seem jumbled at all, but I am a bit flustered after a busy holiday season with family :)

Stop for a second and think of reasons why you need OSX. Outside of support, is there anything else you need from the MacOS? Are you an artist, work with digital design/layout/formatting/paint/any other forms of digital media?

The reason why I bring that up, your list doesn't really scream for any need of OSX. Most of the stuff you have listed, you can do just fine in Linux (for some time now I might add). If you want a macbook for the trendy starbucks effect... I'd say forgo the entire idea and go with a company who supports Linux directly without the infestation of DRM/Lock littered throughout.

I'm going to stop there and leave the decision up to you. If you look through my posting history you will know I'm very against Mac in general. Macs have their place in the computing industry.

For notebooks, I actually feel Macbooks are the way to go. They're solidly built and very portable -- 2 crucial things for a notebook.

I haven't been all that impressed by any of the offerings from "PC" vendors in the notebook game. Of course, when it comes to desktops, build your own.

You could triple boot Mac/Linux/Win, which gives you lots of options.

Why Mac? They cost more and Ubuntu probably runs better on PC.

s3a said: Why Mac? They cost more and Ubuntu probably runs better on PC.

Kind of what I always think. I purchased a lappy from System76 and will definitely make my next purchase from them. They support the hardware, software, and quite good to work with. Not to mention they install ubuntu by default. If you purchase a mac because you think the hardware is premium... you are only paying for the case, name, and operating system. The hardware is designed entirely by Intel using specifications set by Apple. For all intense purposes, the laptop I just got could be the exact same laptop with a different case/look, a few surface mount resistors, and a bios change.

If you have enough money for it, yes.

If you are going to install on a macbook why are you buying a macbook?If you are not an artist you shouldn't go for a mac in my opinion.

s3a said: Why Mac? They cost more and Ubuntu probably runs better on PC.

Macs are PCs They have the same guts as a normal x86 computer except for the use of EFI instead of BIOS

kaldor said: Ease of use

If you are familiar with the basics of how computer work you should do well with OSX. Apart from some irregularities the applications are relatively consistent and hardware support is, as expected, flawless (at least on my 1.1 MacBook).

Ease of installing software

Drag and drop installation mostly, with some installers occasionally thrown in (for applications which need root access mostly).

Customization

You're out of luck here. Apple is all about the out-of-the-box experience and don't offer a lot of ways to customize OSX. You can't change the whole look.

Gaming (mainly older things like Quake II and III and Jedi Knight 3)

Compared to Windows gaming support on OSX is still sparse at best but its getting better. Blizzard offers OSX versions of all their new games and EA also ports some games to OSX as well. Apart from that you should be able to use older games with virtualization software like Parallels.

Free/Open Source application variety

There are quite a few native F/OSS applications for Mac but naturally not as many as for the free operating systems. You can install a lot of Linux/UNIX software via projects like Fink or MacPorts but the applications integrate badly with the rest of the OSX desktop functionally and look utterly out of place.

Speed

What kind of speed?

I love Macbooks a lot. How simple is it to install and work Ubuntu/other distro on a Macbook? Does the hardware "just work" for Linux on a Macbook?

Since I don't own one of the latest MacBooks I can't tell for sure but I am doubtful if things like the button-less trackpad are supported well or at all.

Do I *need* OS X?

This is difficult to answer for outsides as "need" is defined by requirements which can vary from person to person.

I hear WINE does not work well on OS X. Is this true?

Yes, at least in my experience. Virtualization software like Parallels is from an integration point of view vastly superior to Wine on OSX.

Most importantly, am I better off just sticking with Linux?

You are on a Linux board. Guess what the answer will probably be. ;-)

Surely the OP would be aware of the arguments to expect in this forum...

I say buy a Mac or something else.

Both options will have their pro's & con's.

You can't loose.

Just consider yourself lucky as you are one of the few who can afford to buy a new computer.

I use a MacBook Pro at work... it is very nice, but I wouldn't personally spend my own money on one. OS X is not the panacea of OS's that some people think it is - nor is the hardware. Check out Apple Forums if you want to see what I mean. Despite tight control on hardware, there are significant known problems with the MBP.

If you think you need one, or if you like the cool lit up Apple logo, then go for it. But any decent laptop can pull off the same tasks.

Erunno said: If you are familiar with the basics of how computer work you should do well with OSX. Apart from some irregularities the applications are relatively consistent and hardware support is, as expected, flawless (at least on my 1.1 MacBook).

Drag and drop installation mostly, with some installers occasionally thrown in (for applications which need root access mostly).

You're out of luck here. Apple is all about the out-of-the-box experience and don't offer a lot of ways to customize OSX. You can't change the whole look.

Compared to Windows gaming support on OSX is still sparse at best but its getting better. Blizzard offers OSX versions of all their new games and EA also ports some games to OSX as well. Apart from that you should be able to use older games with virtualization software like Parallels.

There are quite a few native F/OSS applications for Mac but naturally not as many as for the free operating systems. You can install a lot of Linux/UNIX software via projects like Fink or MacPorts but the applications integrate badly with the rest of the OSX desktop functionally and look utterly out of place.

What kind of speed?

Since I don't own one of the latest MacBooks I can't tell for sure but I am doubtful if things like the button-less trackpad are supported well or at all.

This is difficult to answer for outsides as "need" is defined by requirements which can vary from person to person.

Yes, at least in my experience. Virtualization software like Parallels is from an integration point of view vastly superior to Wine on OSX.

You are on a Linux board. Guess what the answer will probably be. ;-)

One of the best answers so far, thank you :D

By speed, I mean how fast it boots up, how well it can handle multiple running processes without choking, etc. I would most likely have 4+ GB of RAM on the Macbook if I were to get one.

A new question just came to me. There are antivirus programs offered for Macs quite frequently today. As I understand, OS X uses the FreeBSD kernel, and is a Unix based OS? If this is so, why do you need an antivirus program?

kaldor said: A new question just came to me. There are antivirus programs offered for Macs quite frequently today. As I understand, OS X uses the FreeBSD kernel, and is a Unix based OS? If this is so, why do you need an antivirus program?

We have had Mac's running on the internet here since the year 2000. We haven't used any anti-virus software in that time, & have had not a hint of a virus problem.

That said, I have just recently set up a stand alone IPCop/Copfilter, firewall, router, proxy server, that I am running ClamAV on, for NO other reason than that this configuration doesn't slow down our surfing at all. If it did slow down our internet use then I would remove the ClamAV anti-virus service, as we really do not need it on OSX or the Linux distro's we run.

My own advice is if you feel comfortable paying the premium, go for it. Macs are well-built machines, and last a long time (I can attest to this, typing on one that's nine years old). Ubuntu/(insert other distro here) should run fine on it (the only *significant* potential pitfall would be the EFI, which simply involves installing refit instead of grub.) I happen to like OS X, but you're always free to replace it. In my experience, Apple's customer service is also excellent if the thing breaks down.

That said, I recommend you go to an Apple store and play with one for a while (they *let* you do this) for a while to see if it's for you. Learning to type command-S instead of control-S, remembering that alt types alternative characters and doesn't activate the menus, and *especially* using control to right-click on one-button trackpads (the new MTT, I think, has a touch shortcut for this) takes a bit of time, and there is a bit of a learning curve, but I myself prefer the Mac's way of doing things.

That's just my opinion.

*To the OP:* I wrote an how-to for installing Arch on the alu' iMac; you may well find the sections up to 1.4 Installing Arch helpful.

I go into a lot of detail regarding the way Apple have done things & how we have to work with these peculiarities when installing a distro.

*_http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/IMac_Aluminium_*

kaldor said:

By speed, I mean how fast it boots up

Boot up is quite fast although, like Windows, OSX will still load services after the desktop has become visible so you can't use it right away. Maybe this behavior is better with a faster hard drive (mine has 5400 RPM). You'll probably hardly ever have to reboot as its way faster to just close the lid and let the notebook switch to stand-bye mode. Reboots are only necessary in case of system updates or when the system crashes.

how well it can handle multiple running processes without choking, etc.

I've personally never experienced problems running multiple processes but my personal workflow does not include multiple heavily CPU or I/O bound activities. For what its worth: Compiling in the background, using Eclipse and listening to iTunes at the same time never posed a problem.

I would most likely have 4+ GB of RAM on the Macbook if I were to get one.

Apple does not sell MacBooks with more than 4 GB RAM IIRC and people reported crashes with 3rd party RAM, probably due to the aggressive timings on the nVidia mainboards. AFAIK more than 4 GB RAM are not supported currently anyway (possibly with OSX 10.6) and since the MacBook has only 2 RAM slots you'd have to pay astronomical prices for two 4 GB DDR3 modules.

About "needing" OSX: If use the notebook on battery power for extended periods you'll probably want to stay with OSX. Without having numbers for Ubuntu on a new MacBook at hand OSX is very power efficient. Considering that MacBooks have smaller battery capacities than most other comparable consumer notebooks and can still last up to and over 5 hours (depending on load and power management settings of course) it speaks for how well OSX is tuned to the underlying hardware.

kaldor said: As I understand, OS X uses the FreeBSD kernel, and is a Unix based OS? If this is so, why do you need an antivirus program?

Apple uses a self-developed Kernel called Darwin for OSX, which incorporates some FreeBSD technologies but is not the FreeBSD kernel itself. OS X uses a lot of the userspace applications from FreeBSD and is a certified UNIX system.

I'm not following the security related news very closely but apart from some proof of concepts I'm not aware of any viruses targeting OSX which are "in the wild". If you are exchanging files with Windows clients regularly one could argue that an additional virus scanner on OSX will make it less likely that you will spread a virus which is "parked" on your notebook. *shrug*

jrothwell97 said: and *especially* using control to right-click on one-button trackpads (the new MTT, I think, has a touch shortcut for this) takes a bit of time, and there is a bit of a learning curve

Argh, will this misinformation never die?! You don't have to use control+click for a context menu (and this has been the case for some time now). Just activate two finger tap to be interpreted as a right-click and you are good to go.

Multitouch on the new MBP is awesome. You just do a quick left-finger then right-finger motion, and it recognizes the "gesture" as a right click. I've gotten used to it to the point where I try it on old laptop touchpads, and am then disappointed when it doesn't work!

kaldor said: One of the best answers so far, thank you :D

Because you genuinely think he answered your question, or because he gave you the answer you wanted to hear?

Macs are really fantastic. Their hardware is high-quality and reliable, and their coded apps are great. I highly recommend them to all who ask. But you really have to examine what you want to use your mac for. I think if you're going to buy a mac and run ubuntu on it, it'll be a waste of money, and you'll struggle with compatibilty.

You still didn't answer Spr0cket's response. Why do you want a mac?

I love mac. I love ubuntu. I just think that ubuntu on a mac is paradoxical.

*If you're looking for a high end PC to run ubuntu, check out the Dell XPS series - You can buy them with ubuntu pre-installed. If you want a PC which looks even cooler than mac, and you can afford it, check out voodoo pc.*

Spr0k3t said: Kind of what I always think. I purchased a lappy from System76 and will definitely make my next purchase from them. They support the hardware, software, and quite good to work with. Not to mention they install ubuntu by default. If you purchase a mac because you think the hardware is premium... you are only paying for the case, name, and operating system. The hardware is designed entirely by Intel using specifications set by Apple. For all intense purposes, the laptop I just got could be the exact same laptop with a different case/look, a few surface mount resistors, and a bios change.

System 87 or what ever they are called just put there name on a cheap computer. OMG they put 64bit Linux on there! 64 Bit Linux is not ready yet. Also a bit of open source stuff comes from Apple and it is put in Linux. Ever heard of CPUS if your against Apple don't use CPUS!

handy said: Surely the OP would be aware of the arguments to expect in this forum...

I say buy a Mac or something else.

Both options will have their pro's & con's.

You can't loose.

Just consider yourself lucky as you are one of the few who can afford to buy a new computer. Aye, it won't blow up and it won't cure cancer. The biggest pro with a Mac is that you can legally run any OS on it that is compatible with regular PC's along with Mac OS X. I do like the way Mac's are made though, the body is very creative.

Though, if you ever go for a desktop, just build your own, please.

Yes the macbook is the best computer i ever had and still have for 2 years.

i don't know is the keyboard as bad as the really slim imac one?

mamamia88 said: i don't know is the keyboard as bad as the really slim imac one?

I haven't used the iMac keyboard yet. My only comparison is between the old MacBook 1.1 I've been using for the past year and the new MacBook Pro 5.1 (at this point I'd like to express my gratitude to the educational system and the 50 percent discount I got :-P). Personally, I like the keyboard very much and it's a definitive improvement over the old 1.1 one which had a too soft pressure point for my liking.

But in the end keyboard preferences tend to vary immensely and you'll be best served by trying to type on a MacBook yourself and see if it is too your liking. The buttons are still flat and spaced out and all keys still miss labels for tertiary signs (which is nerve grading to the highest degree unless you memorize them).

The Slim alloy Keyboards are a pleasure to use and have a small desktop footprint

My unibody MacBook keyboard is also a pleasure to use.

My only complaint with Mac input devices is the mighty mouse, the scroll button whilst it works its great but it very quickly becomes dirty and a pain. I replaced mine withe a Logitech

mamamia88 said: i don't know is the keyboard as bad as the really slim imac one?

KiwiNZ said: My only complaint with Mac input devices is the mighty mouse, the scroll button whilst it works its great but it very quickly becomes dirty and a pain. I replaced mine withe a Logitech

+1

And I always have issues trying to right click. 7/10 times it thinks I'm trying to left click.

yep it's quite easy to configure/use ubuntu or debian on a macbook since so many people are doing it its all explained in tutorials.