I was completely unaware that Apple presented the new iLife '09. And I have to admit the GNOME and KDE 4 desktops aren't nowhere near the amazing level of features an easiness of Mac default apps.
Just take a look:
This is what Linux lacks for the end-user
Archived thread 1033116 from Mac OSX. Markdown source: Mac_OSX/thread_1033116_This_is_what_Linux_lacks_for_the_end-user.md
Just going to point out that Gnome and KDE don't have the funds to appoint on person as usability and/or art director, and must rely on the ideas of many different programmers all working on various applications and parts of their respective desktops.
To get to that point where it all works seamlessly together, takes a lot of planning and work. KDE seemed to have taken steps in this direction but I've seen very little of it from Gnome. Also, you fail to say why these interfaces are better in your post, you just post videos that take a lot of time advertising the various apple products. This could almost count as spam.
Personally, from the little time I've spent working on any apple platform, I find I like Ubuntu better, specifically KDE 3.whatever it was before KDE 4.
I predict this thread will result in a flame-war by the 20th post.
I've never gotten what was so great about iLife... iMovie is the most over-rated piece of software ever, GarageBand doesn't do anything most people would ever want, iPhoto could be replaced in a heartbeat by any of a million apps (or online services), many of which would do a better job, and so on and so forth.
I just watched the imovie and iphoto vids and I gotta say, I wish I had something like imovie in my arsenal. The basic editing and shake remover anyway. Those "themes" were just embarising.
You can keep iPhoto though, why complicate life to that level.
On a different point, is it possible to turn off the dock on macs, and still be usable? I could not live with that thing down there taking up space.
Chilli Bob said: On a different point, is it possible to turn off the dock on macs, and still be usable? I could not live with that thing down there taking up space.
Well, you can hide it until you hover your mouse near the bottom of the screen when it becomes visible again.
[offtopic]When oh when will Apple abandon it's stupid iSomething branding? [/offtopic]
Download QuickTime to view the video.
Wow, easiness indeed.
On the functionality part, don't even get me started.
These points all get so rhetorical.... Seriously, because you saw a few apps from Apple which, in your opinion, were great.. its still just conjecture. Some will agree with you, and some won't, but functionally, Linux/FOSS does not lack anything which these apps you listed provide.
If you like Macs, then fine, but please do a little bit more research if you plan to compare Mac to Linux, or start choosing your words a bit more carefully
I'll start off by saying that I use Linux and intend to keep doing so.
However, I have to agree with the OP that at least iMovie and GarageBand are excellent pieces of software that provide simplicity of use with a large amount of features that I have yet to see in any similar Linux software.
I agree that it comes down to usability. I am new to Ubuntu. I wanted to try it.
I brought home an AcerOne netbook. I downloaded Ubuntu and installed it with a USB CDROM.
I upgraded the wireless driver.
I was up and running in less than one hour.
The netbook with Ubuntu hooked right into my home wireless network, found every printer and installed drivers in less than 10 minutes.
I have bought at least a dozen computers over the years and no Windows or Apple machine was ever that easy.
Marc
GarageBand tends to only get used as a basic sound recorder. Apple could ship iAudacity and really only a handful of people would complain. People who want real sequencing capabilities already own Apple Logic.
I've never agreed with iMovie's interface, but I would like Kdenlive to have the stability and features of iMovie.
iPhoto I couldn't care about, and iWeb is probably five years too late.
Honestly, I'd rather have an office suite and pro-level image editor preinstalled. I guess that's partly why I switched to Ubuntu rather than bought another Mac. It was also partly because I didn't have a job at that time :-)
an "iDVD" is also missing to Linux badly...
openivo said: I agree that it comes down to usability.
I am new to Ubuntu. I wanted to try it.
I brought home an AcerOne netbook. I downloaded Ubuntu and installed it with a USB CDROM.
I upgraded the wireless driver.
I was up and running in less than one hour.
The netbook with Ubuntu hooked right into my home wireless network, found every printer and installed drivers in less than 10 minutes.
I have bought at least a dozen computers over the years and no Windows or Apple machine was ever that easy.
Marc I brought home an MacBook. I unwrapped the box and took it out and plugged in the power outlet. Then I booted it and after some first time configuration I was up and running.
Don't even go as far as comparing usability. I know Windows is kind of a hassle to install with drivers, but Macs just work...
I agree that for many people in the industry Apple are the ones that set the standard for the GUI DE.
Really, they have always been the leaders since Steve Jobs saw Alan Kay's Smalltalk at Xerox & was inspired to create the Macintosh.
Thankfully, that is not to say that most of the non-windows DE & WM dev's copy Apple, though some of course do.
For all those people that do think that Apple have produced the near perfect DE GUI; I personally think that Apple still have a long ways to go:
The OSX Finder is still very clumsy.
Keeping all the menu's up at the top of the screen is incredibly inefficient.
The inability to modify the size of most of the OSX system fonts is truly crippling for anyone with a large & high resolution screen.
The fact that if you buy into the Apple way, you generally (with few exceptions) have to use the Apple way (though there exists non-Apple & even some free-ware software) with few exceptions this is somewhat of a cross to bear (for me at least).
I have found that on my iMac that I much prefer to use Arch, as I can control the size of all fonts in all parts of the GUI & elsewhere.
I can control all of the colours (though it is not as easy as I'd like).
I can control my menu completely (though I do have to jump through a few minor hoops initially with Xfce).
Apart from the previously mentioned problems, I have NO problems personalising, customising, modifying, or changing in anyway my Arch Linux system that runs on the alu' iMac.
Actually, in 23 years of computing, I have never been happier than with Arch running on the 24" iMac, it just works, in every way that I need it to. :-D
Well, I thought the videos were self-explained.
Unless you truly think that PiTiVi and F-Spot have, at least, the same amount of features (which they don't) or a better GUI (which they don't), I don't see how you can complain about the first post.
F-Spot is a piece of crap, it's slow, buggy, has a poor interface which doesn't help searching, finding or organizing pictures, it doesn't have any kind of plugin for decent photo edition either. Picasa works a lot better, but it's using wine and isn't exactly integrated. DigiKam interface is a mess, but it has some very good features.
iMovie doesn't have any equivalent. PiTiVi is too basic, kino is crap, kdenlive it's too cluttered and has less features. Cinelerra is damn awesome, but it's for another kind of user, and the interface isn't exactly easy.
Linux has thousand of advantages, but, to be fair, it lacks tools for Professional work, and, at the same time it lacks applications for the end-user, it has apps for the medium/advanced user mostly.
3rdalbum said: GarageBand tends to only get used as a basic sound recorder. Apple could ship iAudacity and really only a handful of people would complain. People who want real sequencing capabilities already own Apple Logic.
Audacity interface isn't exactly polished, but, yes, they're even on features.
3rdalbum said: I've never agreed with iMovie's interface, but I would like Kdenlive to have the stability and features of iMovie.
Looks extremely easy. Yes, for more "pro" work a true timeline is better, but not for easy end-user apps, specially, since Linux equivalents don't even have half the features.
3rdalbum said: iPhoto I couldn't care about, and iWeb is probably five years too late.
That you don't use it has anything to do with this, it isn't an argument.
3rdalbum said: Honestly, I'd rather have an office suite and pro-level image editor preinstalled. I guess that's partly why I switched to Ubuntu rather than bought another Mac. It was also partly because I didn't have a job at that time :-)
There isn't any pro-level image editor on Linux, you can't truly compare PhotoShop CS 4 with The GIMP. OpenOffice is good, however, then again, iWork interface is so well designed (Koffice it's moving towards that approach), and, lastly, everything that runs on Linux runs on OS X (not that I'm telling that is better OS), so I don't how that can be your reason.
WHooops, could somebody erase this XD
LuisAugusto said:
Audacity interface isn't exactly polished, but, yes, they're even on features.
The only reason i have iLife is for garageband, so i must point out to you that this statement is very incorrect. GB has audio filters that are editable while the song is playing, the filters/effects are non-destructive unlike Audacity where you have to keep hitting the undo button, GB has sequencing that is very easy to use, GB has all sorts of labeling features to keep large arrangements in order, it has a master track, etc.... I honestly cant think of one feature Audacity has the GB doesnt. The only benefit is that its free and cross-platform.
Yesterday after macworld, I read the new features that were coming to iPhoto and IMovie. It seems that iPhoto is delivering the (for me) long waited feature of Face Recognition. Because I'm not 100 % happy with my current Ubuntu setup, I decided to list the following pro's of the three popular operating systems.
Do provide you with some background. I'm a creative computer enthusiast that uses computers for more then 15 years, most of the time windows, last three years Ubuntu. I like to play the piano and create music, I like to take pictures, organize and share them. I do some programming stuff as a hobby (python pygtk etc) and need windows for my profession. I often use webcam to chat with friends that I can't see because of the distance.
• ubuntu ∘ ubuntuforms.org ∘ tomboy notes: easy to use ∘ f-spot with facebook export, picasa-export, xmp tags ∘ opensource: look into the source code of evolution how to import a csv formatted addressbook from outlook express ∘ banshee includes autowatch folder and last.fm integration ∘ easy installation of software ∘ fun to write python scripts using py2gtk lib ∘ compatible with mp3/ogg/divx/wma in just a snap of a second ∘ virus and spyware free: safe surfing ∘ theoretical lectures about xesam, metadata, dbus gives good insight + planet.gnome.org /planet.ubuntu.org ∘ compizfusion ∘ price: free ∘ easy installation of printer hp ∘ easy to burn iso files ∘ sudo ∘ updates for life
• mac ∘ timemachine: easy backup ∘ iphoto: face recognition + places ∘ smart folders ∘ itunes with nike+ ∘ slick integration of hardware,OS and software: hibernate,standby, wifi, webcam ∘ easy mouse gestures ∘ sonos desktop controller runs natively ∘ good sound integration (propellerhead Reason) + midi ∘ iMovie easy to create dvd or publish movie ∘ clean graphical layout and nice looking pcs ∘ apple aperture lighttable/zoom ∘ iphone sync ∘ battery life
• windows ∘ runs visual studio natively ∘ last version of gps tomtom software ∘ itunes with nike+ ∘ sonos desktop controller runs natively ∘ easy mounting network drives ∘ xp sp3 is very fast ∘ native msn messenger with good quality and full screen webcam ∘ native games like command & conquer or other older games ∘ native exchange client: outlook ∘ windows server with floating accounts ∘ native ms access ∘ iphone sync ∘ amount of software applications available ∘ .net framework ∘ nokia phone sync
This is just a shortlist of the items that popped into my mind. As you can see there is no clear winner. I've only used a mac on a friends computer, maybe I just need to give it a try. Iphoto09 would be the main reason for this.
Gnome, as I have always maintained, is Mac OS 7/8/9 done right. However, it is really Mac OS X done right, though that's more a matter of degrees. And without question Linux has no iLife equal. I don't use iWork so I can't speak to that with authority, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn the same can be said for that, too.
handy said: The OSX Finder is still very clumsy.
It's a file browser; you double click on a folder and it expands it, you double click on a file and it runs it. What's clumsy?
Keeping all the menu's up at the top of the screen is incredibly inefficient.
Not incredibly inefficient, incredibly efficient. Why should I have an extra half an inch in every single window when I'm only using one window at a time?
The inability to modify the size of most of the OSX system fonts is truly crippling for anyone with a large & high resolution screen.
Never bothered me. If I need to increase the font size in a specific application permanently I make the text bigger using the View menu, if I need to temporarily zoom in I just use the built in zoom tool.
The fact that if you buy into the Apple way, you generally (with few exceptions) have to use the Apple way (though there exists non-Apple & even some free-ware software) with few exceptions this is somewhat of a cross to bear (for me at least).
What do you mean? There's lots of quality third party software for OS X...
I have found that on my iMac that I much prefer to use Arch, as I can control the size of all fonts in all parts of the GUI & elsewhere.
Again, font size has never bothered me
I can control all of the colours (though it is not as easy as I'd like).
The colors? I assume you mean the colors of the window toolbars? I hate custom colors, there's nothing more annoying than walking by my sister's Ubuntu box with the lime green and hot pink color scheme.
I can control my menu completely (though I do have to jump through a few minor hoops initially with Xfce).
What do you need to change in your menu? do you mean the applications list? You can create custom menus in OS X by dragging a folder to the dock...
*@bashveank:* I'm all for freedom of choice.
In my post, that you have quoted above, I voiced my preferences which are based on my experience on my hardware, which has a 24" screen.
My complaints regarding the limited ability incorporated into OSX to size *system* fonts, is certainly exacerbated by the size of my screen in combination with the screen resolution.
Some of my other complaints stand no matter what size the screen or the resolution, though they too are exacerbated by the big screen. Which is pretty dumb of Apple I think.
I expect that Apple will eventually fix the font problem, though I won't hold my breath for Finder or of having more configuration choices for the Aqua GUI; particularly those which would allow modification of the menu system.
These preferences & experiences remain valid to me no matter what anyone else on the planet has to say.
Where is the need to defend, prove or argue over my preferences?
I'm happy for those that the OSX interface suits.
I'm also happy that I can run Arch on the Apple hardware & customise it to suit myself, in the process making it simpler, faster & easier for me to work with.
Just my personal preferences, that is all I'm talking about. :-)
*(I wanted to add this to my previous post, which is posted, counted & listed, but thus far invisible. Poor Ubuntu Geek has obviously still got database problems.)*
bashveank said: It's a file browser; you double click on a folder and it expands it, you double click on a file and it runs it. What's clumsy?
Personal preference is what it is all about. You don't think Finder is clumsy & nothing anyone in the world says will change your mind. I find it clumsy. So what? Do you feel less valuable because someone holds an opinion counter to yours? Don't worry about? :-)
I'll attach a picture of my favourite file browser below.
I care that the developer continues to maintain Worker, though I do not care what file browsers/directory utilities, other people prefer to use.
That you find something clumsy doesn't mean it is clumsy.
Linux is awesome, but if you need any professional application, you're toasted, you either has to use OS X or Windows (maybe, Blender is the only to stand its own)
LuisAugusto said:
That you find something clumsy doesn't mean it is clumsy.
Where is your logic in that one? :lolflag:
I've been using OSX since the beginning of the year 2000, so my statements are based on plenty of personal experience & on more than one type of Apple hardware.
If I find anything to be clumsy, then to me it is. & after 8 years of experience, I'll state it again, I find the OSX Finder to be incredibly clumsy & inefficient.
So, what?
I use an alternative on the same hardware which satisfies me immensely. Which is fantastic. :-D
Regarding *your* clumsy statement:
If you are looking at a democratic consensus; all that indicates is that 51% of those that vote win over the 49%.
So in this argument (which if you read my posts you would see I don't care what other people think on the topic of the validity of my personal preferences. :-) I say what argument?) democracy would say that the 49% loose, & their perceptions of what suits them are invalid, which of course is preposterous & why democracy sucks.
LuisAugusto said:
Linux is awesome, but if you need any professional application, you're toasted, you either has to use OS X or Windows (maybe, Blender is the only to stand its own)
What has that got to do with the clumsy scenario? Or the fact that many of us get everything we need out of whatever distro', BSD, OSX, windows or whatever?
Use whatever suits your needs & preferences, all of the options we have at our disposal have strengths & weaknesses.
Personal preferences can not be the basis for any kind of argument, EXCEPT, when others try to remove the freedom of others to choose.
THAT, is a prime reason to argue, & argue hard at that.
handy said: Where is your logic in that one? :lolflag:
That you're just expressing a personal preference, without arguments, so it's useless. Unless you state why is clumsy, it's just something you feel, not a quality (or lack of) of the software...
handy said: I've been using OSX since the beginning of the year 2000, so my statements are based on plenty of personal experience & on more than one type of Apple hardware.
Personal experience is overrated. Unless that, instead of saying how long you been using it, you actually say why it's clumsy. Is useless again.
handy said: If I find anything to be clumsy, then to me it is. & after 8 years of experience, I'll state it again, I find the OSX Finder to be incredibly clumsy & inefficient.
If it's clumsy to you, that doesn't make the application clumsy. That's a personal preference not an argument.
handy said: So, what?
I use an alternative on the same hardware which satisfies me immensely. Which is fantastic. :-D
That's fine, and off-topic. The topic is "if finder is clumsy". What you use, or like the most, is irrelevant.
The rest of the post is non-sense. Personal preferences aren't arguments, nor, based on reason and facts.
handy said: What has that got to do with the clumsy scenario? Or the fact that many of us get everything we need out of whatever distro', BSD, OSX, windows or whatever?
That wasn't directed to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yet, even if you find everything you need on your distro that *doesn't mean it has professional software.*
LuisAugusto said:
That you're just expressing a personal preference, without arguments, so it's useless. Unless you state why is clumsy, it's just something you feel, not a quality (or lack of) of the software...
I agree with you completely, there is no need to argue about my personal preferences, they are mine, I don't want or need them to be anyone else's. ;-)
LuisAugusto said:
Personal experience is overrated. Unless that, instead of saying how long you been using it, you actually say why it's clumsy. Is useless again.
Personal experience, is all that I am.
I agree that in comparison to other's personal experience mine may be considered to be dramatically inferior; still, it is all I have.
So I must personally disagree with you that personal experience is overrated.
I value my personal experience far more than that of anyone else. I'll trust my experience over a thousand books of someone else's experience, as mine is what makes up my conscious reality; where someone else's experience is just a story I heard. Though like most people, I do like a good story. :-)
LuisAugusto said:
If it's clumsy to you, that doesn't make the application clumsy. That's a personal preference not an argument.
Multiple times I have stated, that these are my personal preferences from my experience & also that due to it being my personal preference/experience, why should I argue to validate it, when I'm already convinced & I don't care if anyone else is. :confused:
LuisAugusto said:
That's fine, and off-topic. The topic is "if finder is clumsy". What you use, or like the most, is irrelevant.
I agree totally, I think you are starting to understand what I have been saying. :-D
LuisAugusto said:
The rest of the post is non-sense. Personal preferences aren't arguments, nor, based on reason and facts.
Again, I'm not arguing. :-)
Sorry, I don't think that will fly too far, as the base for personal preferences may be built upon the foundation of a background range of detailed & far reaching personal experience, that may include a plethora of facts & be totally reasonable. :KS
So, under what circumstances does a person have to prove why their personal preferences on a subject are as they are?
One very common set of circumstances where this happens is when narrow minded (& usually insecure) people with inflexible minds, require others to think the same way that they do or else be branded heretical. History is full of these kinds of stories, primarily based in religion & politics. Though I see it in the population of my small country town. It seems to be a part of human nature that we have to grow beyond. Chauvinism. _______________
So back to the title of this thread:
This is what Linux lacks for the end-user
I was completely unaware that Apple presented the new iLife '09. And I have to admit the GNOME and KDE 4 desktops aren't nowhere near the amazing level of features an easiness of Mac default apps.
Just take a look:
iPhoto iMovie GarageBand iWeb _____________
That statement is true to some & false to others. The statement may or may not display the personal & practical experience of the OP.
It is not everyone else's experience, so the title is false.
I own a Mac & when I do use Leopard I don't use iLife or iWork or iPhoto or iMovie or iWeb or Garageband. In fact I have removed all of them & many other of the included files from my Leopard install. ;-)
handy said: Personal experience, is all that I am.
I agree that in comparison to other's personal experience mine may be considered to be dramatically inferior; still, it is all I have.
So I must personally disagree with you that personal experience is overrated.
I value my personal experience far more than that of anyone else. I'll trust my experience over a thousand books of someone else's experience, as mine is what makes up my conscious reality; where someone else's experience is just a story I heard. Though like most people, I do like a good story. :-)
That's nice. But, you can't backup your arguments based on how much time you been using it. So, experience is overrated, since, in this case, what matters is analysis of the experience, which is lacking here.
handy said: Multiple times I have stated, that these are my personal preferences from my experience & also that due to it being my personal preference/experience, why should I argue to validate it, when I'm already convinced & I don't care if anyone else is. :confused:
That you think that is completely fine. The problem is when try to backup your argument on those without explaining why.
handy said: Sorry, I don't think that will fly too far, as the base for personal preferences may be built upon the foundation of a background range of detailed & far reaching personal experience, that may include a plethora of facts & be totally reasonable. :KS
So, under what circumstances does a person have to prove why their personal preferences on a subject are as they are?
When you're using them as an argument. If you just say: I love Nautilus. That's just fine. If you say, I think Linux is better because it has Nautilus. It isn't "just fine" anymore (just an example).
handy said: One very common set of circumstances where this happens is when narrow minded (& usually insecure) people with inflexible minds, require others to think the same way that they do or else be branded heretical. History is full of these kinds of stories, primarily based in religion & politics. Though I see it in the population of my small country town. It seems to be a part of human nature that we have to grow beyond. Chauvinism.
Your're confusing logic with something else ;)
handy said: That statement is true to some & false to others. The statement may or may not display the personal & practical experience of the OP.
But this isn't about individual preferences, is about the application itself, then "the truth" about it must be made of arguments based on usability guidelines (as I said once: You may like rock, but the fact that Jazz is far superior isn't open to discussions)
handy said: It is not everyone else's experience, so the title is false.
Which is irrelevant, that's bad science your doing there.
handy said: I own a Mac & when I do use Leopard I don't use iLife or iWork or iPhoto or iMovie or iWeb or Garageband. In fact I have removed all of them & many other of the included files from my Leopard install. ;-)
Then again, it's irrelevant... if you are using them as an argument for the tittle being wrong, you need to backup why those were removed, why you think those aren't what we need for the "end-users" (not yourself, you're acting quite egocentric actually). Otherwise, it's useless XD
That's nice. But, you can't backup your arguments
What arguments?
I'm not trying to disprove your *opinions*.
I'm trying to do two things:
1.) Get you to appreciate that I'm arguing that there should exist mutual respect for peoples differing personal preferences, particularly when they are based on experience.
2.) (This argument developed later by the way):-
You can't make all inclusive statements like you did in the original post & the thread title.
The title:
This is what Linux lacks for the end-user
I think that the meaning of your thread title is probably ambiguous, which would be due to English not being your native tongue. (By the way, you do a great job with English though :-))
That statement as it is written thought, has a literal meaning, that only takes one person to not agree with what it says & the whole argument collapses. i.e.
I any Linux end-user, disagrees with the thread title & the statements in your first post, then that renders the title & content incorrect.
If you had of made the title something like this:
***I think* this is what Linux lacks for the end-user**
We would not be having this part of our discussion. :-) _________________
I have been taking an off centre position in my posts in this thread. Most of my argument has been about the fact that personal preferences should not be argued, they should be let alone, unless of course it is the preference of those concerned to argue on such an unwinnable topic. :-)
Our level of communication in our discussion has in my opinion been poor, this is both of our fault, my fault for taking an unexpected stance, combined with your imperfect knowledge of the English language. (My language skills are wanting, but I've had the advantage of over 50 years usage.)
So, I'm sorry LuisAugusto, I see now that I really should have handled this discussion in a completely different way, that is why I have made this post to try & clarify the situation.
Sorry if my insensitivity has been a pain.
Cheers. ;-)
You're wrong. That somebody disagrees doesn't mean anything.
And you said, at first, that the tittle was wrong, based on you uninstalling iLife applications :/ (which is irrelevant, and an "argument")
Also, you said: Finder interface is still clumsy. It may be my poor enlgish skills, but that isn't reflecting a personal opinion, is it?. Shouldn't it be "I believe finder interface is still clumsy"?
BTW: Thanks for the compliment (the tittle is intentional, since it isn't a personal opinion, it's a fact based on reason)
Sorry man, you keep misunderstanding me.
I'm now sorry I joined this thread, I seem to have created misunderstanding after misunderstanding & perhaps even frustration.
None of which was my intention.
Farewell. :-)
stijngysemans said:
<snip>
• windows ∘ last version of gps tomtom software
Interestingly, tomtom appears appears to be written in Linux. If you sync your tomtom to your computer and look in INTERNAL>ttgo.bif and read the file, there is (among other things) ``` LinuxVersion=160868
I also saw something about sound files being in .ogg format earlier, but I can't find it now.Xzallion said:
I predict this thread will result in a flame-war by the 20th post.
Give that man a cigar! =D> I wish the weather man could call it like that.
igknighted said: I've never gotten what was so great about iLife...
It should be called iGetALife... or Silly iDea
when i got my mac mini 6 months ago i realised that ilife was such overated programs i removed them from site. The 08 imovie completely butchered the program and made it more difficult to use to previous versions i had used at college, garageband is terrible, there are a million more options of alternatives to iphoto and idvd is rubbish without imovie anyway. Seriously they may sound great in theory but there not.
PS - I love my mac btw just not these programs.