Why I think Ubuntu is failing

Ok so here's where I'm at: I want to join the unanswered posts team because I have plenty of spare time and want to give back to Ubuntu, the problem is I'm Uber n00b and not I'm not going get accepted. I don't really mind, whatever.

So I decided I'll go to "absolute beginers talk" find the unanswered posts and try to help.

I arranged them in the order: least posts first. The ones with 0 posts from July came up and I had a thought: I wonder how many have no posts? 141 pages or 2820 posts without a single bit of help. People like me dazed and confused waiting for people to answer, well: seeing as the oldest post with no reply is from February 27th that's around 10 months ago.

26 pages or 520 posts: unanswered from that one month alone

skimming through half the issues are: sound, hardware difficulties or graphics cards.

I personally wouldn't hang around for much more then 2 weeks with a problem like that especially if there wasn't even a single attempt to help me. So...eliminating those who have only been waiting <2 weeks:

128 pages or 2560 posts from people who haven't received a drop of help for over 2 weeks.

So as I said before: Over half of them were problems that would make me leave so: 1280 people who now are leaving Ubuntu probably with a bitter taste in their mouths to.

Sure some may re-install and stuff which would bring the number down but then: There's people like me, where there install failed and they didn't have a way to get on the forums.

Then there's people like my friend who didn't know about the forums.

So me and five friends use Ubuntu: 3 didn't know about the forums 2 installed well 3 even once they found out from other users had no computer to get on the forums 2 still use Ubuntu. 1 Tries to stop me from installing on other people's comps

I think some main issues are: were loosing people there's more problems and reoccuring bugs then people to solve them

I've installed Ubuntu on 4 machines 6 times here are the results: 1st x60: Failed 2nd x60: worked until update 1st 3000 C200: worked until update 3rd x60: worked until update (still broken) 2nd 3000 C200: worked My friends t60: worked

Well (to me) these statistics say a fair bit.

Ubuntu is not ready for the desktop.

-Mark Shuttleworth Amen, I love Ubuntu whole heartedly but I'm becoming embarrassed to install it on peoples computers.

I think half the issue is that its always the latest and greatest. I think if people stuck with 8.04.1 things would be better but that's half my attraction to Ubuntu, Daily updates.

I dunno, why do you think Linux has such a small market share?

P.S. I'm going to be continually adding to this.

Failing? It's improving, not failing.

How long have you used Linux? If you have substantial experience with Linux distros, "failing" is certainly not the right word to describe Ubuntu or Linux in general.

It's true that support is somewhat lacking, and hardware compatibility is an issue. However in comparison with the situation several years ago, today's support is relatively excellent.

Your statistics are not large enough to say anything representative about Ubuntu. Try these instead: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=764847 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=766982

$10 says this is going (and should) straight to Recurring Discussions.

Ubuntu is improving yes but by no means is it windows. Windows: Many problems and issues (excluding viruses) are solved and if you don't know the fix you call the 24/7 (paid and often horrible) support and before 2 weeks expires, get it fixed. And yeah its meant for recurring discussions.

joshmuffin said: Ubuntu is improving yes but by no means is it windows.

Windows: Every problem or issue (excluding viruses) is solved and if you don't know the fix you call the 24/7 support and they guide you through the issue

You seem to have exaggerated faith in Windows.

"Every problem or issue is solved"?!!! Really? I have around 5 times more application crashes on Windows than Linux. Besides, most of my computer hardware (including printer and scanner) work on Linux without any interference. On Windows, I need to install drivers from a third-party CD (including drivers for my on-board Ethernet controller).

24/7 telephone support? Remember that you PAY for Windows, so that kind of dedicated support is to be expected. You can fork out money for paid support for Linux distros too.

Your argument has some merit, but don't exaggerate. Exaggeration is only lowering your credibility.

Amended

joshmuffin said: Ubuntu is improving yes but by no means is it windows.

I'm very happy about that too! :)

joshmuffin said: Ubuntu is improving yes but by no means is it windows.

Good. Exactly what we want.

I agree with samjh's comment; Ubuntu, and Linux in general, has been continually improving since the 1990's... It's now at a stage where only 2,820 posts out of 6,494,373 are people who have had unsolved issues on the forums.

By the way, what do you expect to be done about this? Should us volunteers work a bit harder answering questions on our lunch breaks? What about duplicate posts and posts that aren't questions, should we answer those to keep the question/answer ratio up?

joshmuffin said: Windows: Every problem or issue (excluding viruses) is solved

Sorry, you'll have to elaborate on this one, it sounds like you're saying that Microsoft Windows does not have any bugs or issues (besides viruses) anymore...

I amended that and what I was getting at is: windows has the hardware compatibility and you can call them for help.

Just so you know: I put in up to 2-3 hours most days unfortunately I have limited experience so my assistance is lacking.

I don't want anything changed other then more fixes and assistance.

I'm the last one to say Ubuntu should be more like windows. I've stuck with Ubuntu through plenty of problems, its just in my hour of frustration I'm envying windows support.

joshmuffin said: I amended that and what I was getting at is: windows has the hardware compatibility and you can call them for help.

Windows has 3rd party hardware support. Ubuntu has far more hardware support built-in than the current Windows release, but hardware vendors make a point of including drivers for Windows with the hardware.

And if you'd like, you absolutely can call Canonical for Ubuntu phone support. And it is FAR superior to what you'll get from M$. Yes, you'll need to pay for it, but 1 year of support is far cheaper for Ubuntu than the price of a single Windows install disk.

Just so you know: I put in up to 2-3 hours most days unfortunately I have limited experience so my assistance is lacking.

I don't want anything changed other then more fixes and assistance.

You mean FREE support? Like, you know, what you cannot get from Microsoft?

I'm the last one to say Ubuntu should be more like windows. I've stuck with Ubuntu through plenty of problems, its just in my hour of frustration I'm envying windows support.

You shouldn't. M$ support is absolutely horrible. Support from Canonical and RedHat are far superior. They are not satisfied until your problem is fixed. M$ is happy when you hang up.

joshmuffin said: windows has the hardware compatibility and you can call them for help.

Haven't you heard? Linux supports more hardware than Windows.

Also, as others have pointed out, You should be comparing Microsoft support to Canonical support (both are paid telephone support). Ubuntu Forums (and other community support channels) should be compared to the TechNet forums and equivalent.

joshmuffin said: Just so you know: I put in up to 2-3 hours most days unfortunately I have limited experience so my assistance is lacking.

Excellent, and as time goes on your knowledge will improve and you will be able to assist more effectively. 2-3 hours most days is quite a substantial effort, IMO.

joshmuffin said: I'm the last one to say Ubuntu should be more like windows. I've stuck with Ubuntu through plenty of problems, its just in my hour of frustration I'm envying windows support.

We've all been there, time and time again. But remember that the grass is always greener on the other side, and for the record my experience with Microsoft telephone support has been terrible. "Contact the vendor of your third party software" and "Downgrade to service pack X" or "Re-install Windows" have been common responses, and I've never ever been offered patched versions of Windows software from their developers to fix a specific problem I'm having.

I see where my post is lacking: I'm comparing Forums to paid support

But then can someone explain why so few use linux?

joshmuffin said:

But then can someone explain why so few use linux?

Not everyone cares what OS they use and others are content/enjoy what they use.

joshmuffin said: I amended that and what I was getting at is: windows has the hardware compatibility and you can call them for help.

Just so you know: I put in up to 2-3 hours most days unfortunately I have limited experience so my assistance is lacking.

I don't want anything changed other then more fixes and assistance.

I'm the last one to say Ubuntu should be more like windows. I've stuck with Ubuntu through plenty of problems, its just in my hour of frustration I'm envying windows support.

You can always buy Ubuntu support 8/5 or 24/7.

joshmuffin said:

But then can someone explain why so few use linux?

Because few people need to install Windows themselves.

If Linux is pre-installed on most computers, most people will use Linux.

Average people don't want to install the OS themselves, is it fair enough?

If "most" windows users have to install windows themselves, things would be quite different and the driver/multimedia issue still there.

joshmuffin said: I dunno, why do you think Linux has such a small market share?

The main reason why Ubuntu and Linux in general have such a small market share is not in your list: it is because everybody already has Windows, and Microsoft is a marketing giant.

There's no single company that's selling Ubuntu (or other Linux distributions) as aggressively as Microsoft is selling Windows.

People don't use Windows because they made a conscious choice. Most people don't think about what operating system to get. They probably even hardly understand what an operating system is, and almost all computers come with Windows by default. They have no idea that there are alternatives available.

The vast majority of people certainly do not use Windows because they carefully thought about it and determined that Windows is the best and most user-friendly OS.

joshmuffin said: I arranged them in the order: least posts first.

The ones with 0 posts from July came up and I had a thought: I wonder how many have no posts? 141 pages or 2820 posts without a single bit of help. People like me dazed and confused waiting for people to answer, well: seeing as the oldest post with no reply is from February 27th that's around 10 months ago.

26 pages or 520 posts: unanswered from that one month alone

skimming through half the issues are: sound, hardware difficulties or graphics cards.

I personally wouldn't hang around for much more then 2 weeks with a problem like that especially if there wasn't even a single attempt to help me. Sure, you have a good point, but how many of those are of the > h0w do i cube zomg y wont some0ne help me put in a cube!!!!!!!!!1my brother sed u ppl r helpfl but no1 show me how to cube i m going back 2 windows screw thisvariety?

I try to skip through General Help for at least a little while when I'm online, and help who I know I can help, but quite frankly the Absolute Beginners forum I find to be quite stomach turning. Most (not all) of the people there want someone to do things *for them*, not help them do *for themselves*. Most of that same crowd has no interest in learning, either.

I was a n00b once, too - we all were. But we take the time to read, use the google, read some more, and experiment.

MS will hold your hand and do things for you because you pay them to. Nobody around here makes any money doing what they do.

EDIT: I made a post in Feedback & Help a while back that was sort of about what I'm getting at up there, named To coddle or not to coddle - that is the question. I was surprised at how many people came forward and ferociously fought for the job of coddling newbies. On the third page, I suggested creating a master Q/A post or doc that would sit on the desktop of a fresh install that links to various tutorials and information, and the idea never got mentioned again.

I see it as Linux in growing and getting better as we speak, but one of the biggest problem is that things just don't work. I rather have Ubuntu then Windows, but I'm so frustrated with Ubuntu right now. I have been trying to get my webcam to work for the past 4 months. I know that I'm not the only one with that problem.So I think that it will take time. think back 5 years ago. How many people had Linux compared to today?

joshmuffin said: I see where my post is lacking:

I'm comparing Forums to paid support

But then can someone explain why so few use linux?

When you bought your computer, what was on it? Consider that most users do not even know that there ARE alternatives, let alone being confident enough to take a shot at installing one of them.

My parents use Windows. They know it is Windows, but even after being told several times about Linux, they don't understand. They just know that their computer runs Windows. As long as I can fix it when they break it, they are happy. If I installed Linux, I'd have to explain to them why they can't buy games from the dollar bin for the grandkids. It's not easy to explain to them, so I fix their computer when they break it.

detroit/zero said: Sure, you have a good point, but how many of those are of the variety?

Perfect example. I see posts with questions that just make no sense, and I move to the next one. I don't have the time or patience to walk someone through using the language so that I can understand their question. I am not in the same generation, and those posts are just painful for me to read, so I leave them for someone else.

i seriously do not think ubuntu is failing. unfortunately, what some people do not realise is that no system in the world is flawless (eg. hadron collider). so when people complain about this or that in ubuntu i take about as much notice as with windows complaints. both are extremely big and complex and will never be perfect. especially is the case with ubuntu where nearly all the packages never really have an end-goal where they can say, okay, now we stop developing. most of the packages are constantly beinge developed and improved on, which may cause one or two new instabilities to be introduced. and that brings me to another point, most of the time the problem isn't with ubuntu as such, but rather with a specific package.

but out of the two (windows and ubuntu), i am much more happier putting up with ubuntu's flaws than windows' flaws. why? well perfect example. even though i been using linux for about 5 or 6 years, maybe more, when vista came out i though i would give it a shot. so i chose to run it for a few months on my laptop. unfortunately, being a web developer, i found vista to be impossible to use. i use the word 'impossible' simply because it was literally that way. after installing any type of server software such as apache, iis, mysql or mssql, vista went to hell. sometimes took 20 minutes just to load the desktop on startup. trying to open up mssql etnerprise manager jsut crashed vista completely. in fact, its funny, both iis and mssql worked far worse than apache and mysql did in vista. in fact its been so bad that ive managed to convince one of the higher ups in my company to start using php and mysql on their windows servers, which will hopefully start movign things into an open source direction.

but ultimately, i think there is nothing wrong with ubuntu. the only problems you find in ubuntu are those that you will find in other operating systems. everything has its pros and cons. sometimes windows will be suited for some users, and for others ubuntu is just perfect. while we dream of an operating system, or any piece of technology to be beyond perfect and flawless, this will never happen.

you can spend a million dollars on one of the most expensive mercedez, doesn't mean that you will never be broken down on the side of the road with my heap of trash whizzing by.

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Circus-Killer said: you can spend a million dollars on one of the most expensive mercedez, doesn't mean that you will never be broken down on the side of the road with my heap of trash whizzing by.

You drive a heap of trash as well? Do you often perch by the window in panic on refuse collection days? :)

It's fine to point out the numbers of unanswered posts...BUT people here are not being paid, it is not their job to answer people problems, they do it because they want to.

Secondly, does not receiving help really make people want to move on from Ubuntu? I mean if someone has a Windows issue and can't get help on a forum somewhere, do they move on to another OS or put up with the problem?

Ubuntu is not failing. Full stop. It is merely not being as successful as Microsoft Windows currently is, and there are myriad reasons for this. We have to remember that Ubuntu, apart from a small number of Dell machines, is not the default Operating System.

As has been mentioned in the past, your average Joe Bloggs who has a computer because he wants to check his email, browse ebay, and listen to Music will be delighted by Vista, Outlook, IE and Windows Media Player, and why wouldn't he. It does exactly what he wants, and if it breaks, he asks a more knowledgable mate to fix it, or goes back to MS for help. It's like buying a second hand car with the option to take it back to the vendor to for repairs, or having a buddy who'll do it for free. Continuing the car analogy, how many people do you know that have ever modified their car in any way? Seriously, apart from seat covers and neccessary repairs, almost nobody alters their car from the standard spec at purchase. The same applies to computers.

I would concede, however, that a huge number of people want a computer that does what they want, when they want, and reliably, and that Ubuntu does not necessarily tick all of those boxes. The vast majority of these people have very little understanding of the workings of their PC, or how to customise it to do what they want. Again, I can draw an analogy with cars, and quote a neighbour of mine, "I can drive, but I'm buggered if I can explain how an (internal combustion) engine works, I just know when it doesn't."

Ubuntu is succeeding, but only in terms of a relative underdog. It is not, and will never be a universal operating system. The best that can realistically be achieved is that it will achieve a market share roughly half that of Macintosh. With the exceptions of certain things like Firefox, whereby there has been a remarkable level of market penetration, most customers do not know, understand or care about Open Source Software, they just want a computer that works, and Ubuntu, in line with the rest of the Linux community is still chasing Microsoft for that title.

I think the unanswered posts are only a symptom and not the cause. There are posts that are answered that still don't solve the problem. There are posts that aren't answered where the solution is readily available. They all reflect the same difficulty.

For the vast majority of people who try and give up and the many who would like to try and do not it is also the same reason.

The reason holding Linux back from a bigger piece of the pie seems very obvious to me, but I don't think many people get it. Though Linux supports more hardware than anything else and the system will immediately identify just about anything, it is just too difficult to get a lot of hardware to work.

joshmuffin said:

Amen, I love Ubuntu whole heartedly but I'm becoming embarrassed to install it on peoples computers.

i've installed it for 9 other people and they all love it. no problem here. your assumptions might be off a bit.

neba said: I have been trying to get my webcam to work for the past 4 months.

why would you put yourself through that instead of buying a compatible one? when you buy a mac you have to buy stuff that is compatible with it, so why is ubuntu any different?

wolfen69 said: why would you put yourself through that instead of buying a compatible one? when you buy a mac you have to buy stuff that is compatible with it, so why is ubuntu any different?

To be fair (and I do agree with you on this, in general), most of the people switching over already have hardware to start with. They are using the PC, and everything works, since the manufacturers provide drivers for that other O$. Now, the person makes a switch to Ubuntu, and finds that something doesn't work, and it becomes frustrating.

Personally, I only buy hardware that I know will work with my OS. And way back when I started using Linux, I bought replacement items to get rid of the ones that linux didn't recognize.

joshmuffin said: I amended that and what I was getting at is: windows has the hardware compatibility

EErr...c'mon man. Linux picks up and automatically installs FAR more hardware OOTB than any Windows release I have used, and I install Windows ALL DAY LONG. ):P

Ripfox said: EErr...c'mon man. Linux picks up and automatically installs FAR more hardware OOTB than any Windows release I have used, and I install Windows ALL DAY LONG. ):P

You know how it goes, though. People get their shiny new computer wioth Windows pre-loaded, so they assume that Windows comes with the drivers for everything. To re-install, they use a recovery disk, so still no drivers to install.

Then, when they do need a driver, either the device came with a disk for Windows, or they can simply download it from the manufacturer's web site. And rather than complaining that the HW manufacturer isn't making linux drivers, they badmouth linux for not having the drivers built in...

Ripfox said: EErr...c'mon man. Linux picks up and automatically installs FAR more hardware OOTB than any Windows release I have used, and I install Windows ALL DAY LONG. ):P

This is really a non-issue for Windows since Microsoft may test the drivers but they don't develop them and every piece of hardware comes with a CD with Windows drivers unless you buy some OEM hardware and not retail then you might only get the hardware but thats why its cheaper.

Anyway the drivers can be downloaded from most mfg's websites.

Linux picks up and automatically installs FAR more hardware OOTB than any Windows

That might be true, but problem is with what isn't automatically picked up and installed. All you have to do is look around these forums. That is the biggest problem with Linux. There is no good comprehensive way to know what is supported in the first place, but that is not the major problem. Hardware that is supported often is a royal pain in the a** to get working. That is the #1 reason people give up on Linux and the reputation of that is why many others do not bother to try Linux. That the manufacturers write the drivers and include them for windows obviously makes it easier for windows but it is an overused excuse. There are thousands of Linux kernel developers and most of them work on hardware drivers. The Kernel developers have no direct connection with the end user. That connection or support is done by the distributions, like Ubuntu. Ubuntu has nothing, or next to, to do with kernel development. Is there some kind of disconnect here? Software is systematically and seamlessly installed, why isn't this approach applied to hardware? Envy is the rare example of something like this.

neba said: I see it as Linux in growing and getting better as we speak, but one of the biggest problem is that things just don't work. I rather have Ubuntu then Windows, but I'm so frustrated with Ubuntu right now. I have been trying to get my webcam to work for the past 4 months. I know that I'm not the only one with that problem.So I think that it will take time. think back 5 years ago. How many people had Linux compared to today?

is you webcam in compatible hardware list?

Zlatan said: is you webcam in compatible hardware list?

No its not. It took some time for me to find that its not. Zack McCool made a good point. He said "most of the people switching over already have hardware to start with. They are using the PC, and everything works, since the manufacturers provide drivers for that other O$. Now, the person makes a switch to Ubuntu, and finds that something doesn't work, and it becomes frustrating." What I had to realise is that Ubuntu should be more of a hobby. I love computers and working on them. When something does not work, I should want to take the time to fix it. My sister loves her mac. She knows nothing about computers and has lots of money, so a Mac is perfect for her lol. I will bet as time goes on Linux will take off more.

To those who say we can always buy Ubuntu support:

I see no home user support on the Canonical website.

Single desktop 24/7 support contract = $900

Windows 24/7 support for my retail copy of Vista = free for first 90 days and $60 per event thereafter.

I had to use the commercial support ONCE inside the 90 day period. It was free.

There is no non-commercial professional support available from Canonical for home users that I can see.

tsali said:

Single desktop 24/7 support contract = $900

How long does that contract run, because if it is a standard years worth of support then something like Novell' SLED is cheaper I believe that is about 50$ per year.

Regardless I think their model will fail primarily because they do not actively develop the code they support. For many cases they will have to contract out to Red Hat, Novell and the other companies that actively do develop the codebase. Sure it's open source but that does not imply that anyone has an equal understanding of the code, the best people to do that are still the actual developers.

Ubuntu is great software, just not that many people know about it. That's why we need to spread free, open software.

Free Help https://help.ubuntu.com/ http://www.ubuntu.com/support/communitysupport http://ubuntuforums.org/ http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/locallanguage

gnomeuser said: How long does that contract run, because if it is a standard years worth of support then something like Novell' SLED is cheaper I believe that is about 50$ per year.

Regardless I think their model will fail primarily because they do not actively develop the code they support. For many cases they will have to contract out to Red Hat, Novell and the other companies that actively do develop the codebase. Sure it's open source but that does not imply that anyone has an equal understanding of the code, the best people to do that are still the actual developers.

Why the heck do you need the devs to do support? It's like expecting bill gates to answer your call to microsoft. It's not going to happen. I'd MUCH rather the devs keep on doing what they're doing then do tech support all day.

Bios Element said: Why the heck do you need the devs to do support? It's like expecting bill gates to answer your call to microsoft. It's not going to happen. I'd MUCH rather the devs keep on doing what they're doing then do tech support all day.

+1

I agree mate. There are plenty of other places to get help.

joshmuffin said: Ok so here's where I'm at:

I want to join the unanswered posts team because I have plenty of spare time and want to give back to Ubuntu, the problem is I'm Uber n00b and not I'm not going get accepted. I don't really mind, whatever.

So I decided I'll go to "absolute beginers talk" find the unanswered posts and try to help.

I arranged them in the order: least posts first. The ones with 0 posts from July came up and I had a thought: I wonder how many have no posts? 141 pages or 2820 posts without a single bit of help. People like me dazed and confused waiting for people to answer, well: seeing as the oldest post with no reply is from February 27th that's around 10 months ago.

26 pages or 520 posts: unanswered from that one month alone

skimming through half the issues are: sound, hardware difficulties or graphics cards.

I personally wouldn't hang around for much more then 2 weeks with a problem like that especially if there wasn't even a single attempt to help me. So...eliminating those who have only been waiting <2 weeks:

128 pages or 2560 posts from people who haven't received a drop of help for over 2 weeks.

So as I said before: Over half of them were problems that would make me leave so: 1280 people who now are leaving Ubuntu probably with a bitter taste in their mouths to.

Sure some may re-install and stuff which would bring the number down but then: There's people like me, where there install failed and they didn't have a way to get on the forums.

Then there's people like my friend who didn't know about the forums.

So me and five friends use Ubuntu: 3 didn't know about the forums 2 installed well 3 even once they found out from other users had no computer to get on the forums 2 still use Ubuntu. 1 Tries to stop me from installing on other people's comps

I think some main issues are: were loosing people there's more problems and reoccuring bugs then people to solve them

I've installed Ubuntu on 4 machines 6 times here are the results: 1st x60: Failed 2nd x60: worked until update 1st 3000 C200: worked until update 3rd x60: worked until update (still broken) 2nd 3000 C200: worked My friends t60: worked

Well (to me) these statistics say a fair bit.

Amen, I love Ubuntu whole heartedly but I'm becoming embarrassed to install it on peoples computers.

I think half the issue is that its always the latest and greatest. I think if people stuck with 8.04.1 things would be better but that's half my attraction to Ubuntu, Daily updates.

I dunno, why do you think Linux has such a small market share?

P.S. I'm going to be continually adding to this.

Hang two weeks waiting for a resolution...............Hell no!

I had the VLC closes problem...solution GOOGLE....duh! FIXED! I had video stops after one second....solution ALTAVISTA....duh! FIXED I had no audio problem.......solution ALtavista, ASK, GOOGLE.....duh! FIXED I had no linux program app or windows equivalent available solution Altavista, Ask, Google...duh! FIXED!

I had no wireless internet.........solution Ask, Google and Altavista....duh! FIXED! I had unable to change screen resolution solution Ubuntu forums six hours....duh! FIXED!

I had many more problems that were SOLVED! by using these inventions called search engines that find working solutions in seconds to the same problems whose solutions get posted over and over and over again and again to the point where I SEARCH first and most times the solution is THERE! in just seconds and only a link press away.

I use Ubuntu 8.10 since I found Vista too complicated for an idiot like me. And thats where Ubuntu is kicking *** one user at a time. Simplicity and no viruses and kickass effects is the way to go.

Time for the bye, bye Vista wave...........hit the road Vista and dont you come back no more, no more, no more):P

Russell Burrows said: Hang two weeks waiting for a resolution...............Hell no!

I had the VLC closes problem...solution GOOGLE....duh! FIXED! I had video stops after one second....solution ALTAVISTA....duh! FIXED I had no audio problem.......solution ALtavista, ASK, GOOGLE.....duh! FIXED I had no linux program app or windows equivalent available solution Altavista, Ask, Google...duh! FIXED!

I had no wireless internet.........solution Ask, Google and Altavista....duh! FIXED! I had unable to change screen resolution solution Ubuntu forums six hours....duh! FIXED!

I had many more problems that were SOLVED! by using these inventions called search engines that find working solutions in seconds to the same problems whose solutions get posted over and over and over again and again to the point where I SEARCH first and most times the solution is THERE! in just seconds and only a link press away.

I use Ubuntu 8.10 since I found Vista too complicated for an idiot like me. And thats where Ubuntu is kicking *** one user at a time. Simplicity and no viruses and kickass effects is the way to go.

Time for the bye, bye Vista wave...........hit the road Vista and dont you come back no more, no more, no more):P

[COLOR=Magenta]LoL[/COLOR]! [COLOR=Black]

I second that, I am completely hopeless when I get frustrated and as such I use ubuntu. Windows is great for gaming etc while it works, but that never lasts long and I am constantly aware of the numerous security holes in windows. Google '*windows hack*' and there are so many videos of little kids hacking xp/vista boxes its scary. I remember an article a while ago that showed a hacking competition - result: a windows system cracked straight away, a mac that held out a while longer and an ubuntu machine that at the end of the three days had still not been cracked. That is enough of a reason for me! Oh, and vista terrifies me...and yes I have used it enough to know...

As far as tech support is concerned, the one time I actually bought windows (xp) I suffered data loss as a result of a [COLOR=Red]bad windows[/COLOR] update and was plagued by other problems long after the update. I contacted microsoft tech support numerous times and never recieved even a vaguely helpful response. The best I got was to be told I must have hardware problems - That led to an email arguement as I regularly and comprehensively test my systems (being an IT hardware technician) and everything was fine. This went on for soooo long I just gave up.

When I have had problems with Ubuntu I have a quick google to see what I can find. If that fails (or like me you dont always understand software/OS speak) then I come here. *I have recieved better help from the people here at ubuntuforums than I ever have had from any other OS or software provider!!* (if you fancy a real laugh just try to use steam support and their ticket system!!)

As far as I see it gaming is the last hurdle to jump, but that is not down to ubuntu, that is down to the game devs releasing for more than just windows!

Stick with it, it is worth the effort! Two years ago no-one I knew used *nix - I found ubuntu (googled 'linux for humans') and loved it straight away. Now most of my friends use it and I have installed it (for free of course - which customers like!!) on a few of my clients systems too.

Where I was born we would not call that failing! [COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR] [/COLOR]

Bios Element said: Why the heck do you need the devs to do support? It's like expecting bill gates to answer your call to microsoft. It's not going to happen. I'd MUCH rather the devs keep on doing what they're doing then do tech support all day.

As quite a lot of support requires an indepth knowledge of how the software works. Support is a tiered system, you have monkeys at tier one who can handle maybe 70% of all support requests with well written step by step manuals. However there are quite a number of issues where you need the ability to look at the code or even change it.

If you want a look into how support works in a major Linux vendor, Novell's Open Audio podcast has a segment called news from support. They often explain how they elevate issues and take examples from the real world with them as examples.

Currently something like Launchpad only handles the top 30% of issues, backtraces and such. Requests for future features (and there is one I would like to see you do without developers or contracting to another vendor who has them at great cost). The monkeys are not actually solving the issues in Launchpad, those are for the developers to deal with. They know what information to request, how to read technical reports and where to go.

It's doing great, There's no issue

Oh man, this is winning the poll. Is people blind?

Linux, as a whole, has a .7% market share, and it has been like that for at least 3 years (and they were times when it had a bigger one). The Market Share isn't increasing.

Linux needs:

• Publicity
• Better applications for newbies and advance users (middle level users are just well served). This is the biggest issue.
• A more cross-platform GUI. Listen to me, as long as they're soooo many Linux GUIs and distros using different ones, Linux is doomed.
• It would be nice to have 1 "official" toolkit, for technology reasons, Qt would be nice, otherwise, GTK devs could do something to avoid GTK application looking and behaving differently on KDE. KDE already did it.
• Or, at least, true integration between them (then again, integration is only done well on KDE).
• Please... Package-kit! Be my guest and take over all the other front-ends with your impressive features.
• Don't offer Distros with such a poor artwork (yes, you heard me Ubuntu).
• We need something better than OpenOffice, OpenOffice is plain bad on Linux, we need something iWork styled, kinda like Koffice and Abiword and it's partners.
• Better defaults. We just don't have enough for serving many people, but we also ship the wrong application. Use Banshee, ship Jokosher, my god, it took you years to replace the old nautilus burner as default with Brasero, and Transmission, and you still don't ship basic tools, like a grub configuration GUI, ship VirtualBox, VLC, Miro, showcase the applications just like Mac OS X does, we have some incredible apps, but users need to find them, come to a forum and ask. SHIP A RICH FEATURE PACKAGE, WHO CARES IF YOU NEED TO USE A DVD, if you need to, do it, and keep offering the liveCD as a small version which will download the rest on post-installation.

LuisAugusto said: Oh man, this is winning the poll. Is people blind?

Linux, as a whole, has a .7% market share, and it has been like that for at least 3 years (and they were times when it had a bigger one). The Market Share isn't increasing.

Linux needs:

• Publicity
• Better applications for newbies and advance users (middle level users are just well served). This is the biggest issue.
• A more cross-platform GUI. Listen to me, as long as they're soooo many Linux GUIs and distros using different ones, Linux is doomed.
• It would be nice to have 1 "official" toolkit, for technology reasons, Qt would be nice, otherwise, GTK devs could do something to avoid GTK application looking and behaving differently on KDE. KDE already did it.
• Or, at least, true integration between them (then again, integration is only done well on KDE).
• Please... Package-kit! Be my guest and take over all the other front-ends with your impressive features.
• Don't offer Distros with such a poor artwork (yes, you heard me Ubuntu).
• We need something better than OpenOffice, OpenOffice is plain bad on Linux, we need something iWork styled, kinda like Koffice and Abiword and it's partners.
• Better defaults. We just don't have enough for serving many people, but we also ship the wrong application. Use Banshee, ship Jokosher, my god, it took you years to replace the old nautilus burner as default with Brasero, and Transmission, and you still don't ship basic tools, like a grub configuration GUI, ship VirtualBox, VLC, Miro, showcase the applications just like Mac OS X does, we have some incredible apps, but users need to find them, come to a forum and ask. SHIP A RICH FEATURE PACKAGE, WHO CARES IF YOU NEED TO USE A DVD, if you need to, do it, and keep offering the liveCD as a small version which will download the rest on post-installation.

Are you going to pay for all of that then?

Remember this is *free*.

[COLOR=Magenta]^_-[/COLOR]

Mehashi said: Are you going to pay for all of that then?

Remember this is *free*.

[COLOR=Magenta]^_-[/COLOR]

Saying "Free" is a good pretext for covering your mistakes. And is constantly done by the Linux community.

LuisAugusto said: Saying "Free" is a good pretext for covering your mistakes. And is constantly done by the Linux community.

You don't like it, go to Apple.

Re: "Ship everything"

most distro's DO have DVD versions.

And I would actually stop using any distro that automagically wanted to download another bunch of programs after I installed from a Live CD.

[SIZE=2]The operating system music have the users' most basic needs integrated in it. For example: I've lend a copy of Ubuntu 8.10 to my friend. He asked multiple times if the works he was doing (Like listening to music, playing to videos and even if he will be able to browse the internet) and I've anserwered YES! He was not able to work with *another operating system* after a mtf corruption so as a friend, he believe me and tried it, firstly by installing and replacing his operating system. But when he tried to play a simple mp3, he wasn't able to do so. Play a MPEG4 H.246 video, no you can't without downloading and installed the proper codecs! (Not everybody have an internet access to download the 'restricted codecs').[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]He was about to stab me with the sharp edge of that ubuntu cd.

[SIZE=2]I know about all the copyright stuff of mp3 decoders but how can the others distro implement it and the 1st ranked distro at distrowatch and other Linux/Unix specialized site can't. I've probably voted for the "Not enougth programs"

Apart that Ubuntu seems fairly good, easy to configure, understand and use. And damn slow even under normal circumstances and use (Like playing a mp3 or editing a text file under abiword) . What the...! I just brought that pc. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

EV500B said: [SIZE=2]The operating system music have the users' most basic needs integrated in it.

For example: I've lend a copy of Ubuntu 8.10 to my friend. He asked multiple times if the works he was doing (Like listening to music, playing to videos and even if he will be able to browse the internet) and I've anserwered YES! He was not able to work with *another operating system* after a mtf corruption so as a friend, he believe me and tried it, firstly by installing and replacing his operating system. But when he tried to play a simple mp3, he wasn't able to do so. Play a MPEG4 H.246 video, no you can't without downloading and installed the proper codecs! (Not everybody have an internet access to download the 'restricted codecs').[/SIZE] [SIZE=1]He was about to stab me with the sharp edge of that ubuntu cd.

[SIZE=2]I know about all the copyright stuff of mp3 decoders but how can the others distro implement it and the 1st ranked distro at distrowatch and other Linux/Unix specialized site can't. I've probably voted for the "Not enought programs"

Apart that Ubuntu seems fairly good, easy to configure, understand and use. And damn slow even under normal circumstances and use (Like playing a mp3 or editing a text file under abiword) . What the...! I just brought that pc. [/SIZE][/SIZE]

Plenty of distro's don't ship the codecs, most probably don't.

Those that do are arguably breaking the law. There is a reason why Mint have made a version without codecs: So they can go on Cover CD's for magazines. Magazine's can't distribute the codecs, and distributing them in a .iso is questionable. (Though nobody ahs bothered complaining to anybody)

in my opinion its the best distro , your always learning and its always improving . . its down to the hardware vendors to make the drivers source code open to improve compatibility. and us as users to raise the awareness level......most people dont even know linux exists, theyre stuck with their internet explorer and windows. following the masses like sheep, same goes for the mainstream music!!

Mehall said: You don't like it, go to Apple.

Another pretext: Nobody is forcing you to use Linux. Stop evading critics and start working on them.

Mehall said: Re: "Ship everything"

most distro's DO have DVD versions.

I didn't say ship everything. But none of the following is shipped on any DVD I'm aware of (at least on important distros):

• VLC
• VirtualBox
• Miro
• Jokosher
• Scribus
• Blender

Mehall said: And I would actually stop using any distro that automagically wanted to download another bunch of programs after I installed from a Live CD.

Would you like to download the rest of the packages? Yes - No.

And, in all seriousness, it isn't about you, what you want/care/will is completely irrelevant, what matters is what most people wants in this case, and what will appeal to more people. Not to you, or to me, since we can download, install or compile whatever we want.

I don't think "most" people need Blender or VirtualBox.

My distro of choice DOES in fact have VLC included, on Live CD

I don't use ANY of the other programs you listed, nor would the "average user".

They would probably use:

Video watching (VLC) picture editing (GIMP. most still don't do all that much video editing, nothing beyond what Mindows Movie Maker can do, and we need a FOSS WMM level program.) Firefox (maybe) Thunderbird or Evolution Music program (with library, better than VLC. Rhythmbox, for example.)

Granted VLC isn;t included by default, but a bunch of distro's use Totem.

In all honesty, if you think you know what people want in a distro, go make it, even if it's a Ubuntu remaster (or Debian, Fedora, w/e)

I might even use it, though I doubt it.

Mehall said: I don't think "most" people need Blender or VirtualBox.

My distro of choice DOES in fact have VLC included, on Live CD

I don't use ANY of the other programs you listed, nor would the "average user".

They would probably use:

Video watching (VLC) picture editing (GIMP. most still don't do all that much video editing, nothing beyond what Mindows Movie Maker can do, and we need a FOSS WMM level program.) Firefox (maybe) Thunderbird or Evolution Music program (with library, better than VLC. Rhythmbox, for example.)

Granted VLC isn;t included by default, but a bunch of distro's use Totem.

In all honesty, if you think you know what people want in a distro, go make it, even if it's a Ubuntu remaster (or Debian, Fedora, w/e)

I might even use it, though I doubt it.

VLC mostly as a video player, as a Music & Video management and player of course Banshee is the best option (nope, not-Rythmbox).

Also, why you don't take a look at how many people use Parallels and other solution on Mac OS X...

Thunderbird or Evolution are 100% necessary.

Blender will be great as default, how many don't even know the program and are likely to pay thousand of dollars for a good 3D application, Blender is the most competitive application on the Pro Market, also, is the best non-qt video editor out there (KDEnlive would be great as default too, since WM Maker is better than mostly everything available on Linux, at least for the average Joe, but, it won't be used, even if it integrates seamlessly with GNOME).

Miro is an amazing application, the average Joe will certainly enjoy using it, they don't, because they aren't aware it exists.

Jokosher would be great as an easy to use audio recording and editing tool, it's lightweight too. Right now, on Ubuntu, if you want to edit a 10 seconds audio file, you gotta come to the forums and ask for help...

One of the factors which is making Mac OS X so successful is that people feel they can do everything out-of-the-box , it they want to edit a simple video of their vacations, or make a stupid AMV for youtube, they just open iMovie, if they want to mess around with music, they open GarageBand, if they want to run Windows, they use bootcamp, to browse and organize their pictures, they use iPhoto (F-spot is a crap). Wanna create a website? iWeb, or a DVD? iDVD.

Ubuntu lacks many things (by default), the user has to research in order to do simple tasks.

Oh! And for people who actually needs to do serious audio editing, they either install Ubuntu Studio (which is very unlikely, at least the first time), or they're doomed, they have to compile and install a RT version of the kernel... this is non-sense, and it doesn't happen in any other OS aside from Linux.

that's because Linux is NOT any other OS

EDIT: To go further, you pick the OS that best suits your needs. Be it Windows, Mac or Linux.

When using Linux, you use the distro that best suits your needs, that's why we have differences in distros: choice.

Mehall said: that's because Linux is NOT any other OS

So? Did you discover this by yourself?

It isn't about being "any other OS", that's the same pretext crap as the others, if devs want it to be like this, keep going, but don't advertise Linux is ready for the prime time of desktop computers, nor argue when people tells you they didn't have to compile a kernel in any other OS (and they're right, they shouldn't need to, they don't even need to know what a kernel is).

Mehall said: When using Linux, you use the distro that best suits your needs, thats why we have differences in distro's: choice.

Choice is the biggest cancer on the Linux community. It confuses the new user, it makes hard for users to learn how to use it, and it's a waste of human resources. There are so many projects which are absolutely useless, and amazing amount of distros which are waste of time and server space.

Competition is good, stupid cluttered markets, are exactly that, stupid.

Thing is, because of M$ and OEM's being full of crap, none of them even need to install an OS at all.

If Linux was shipped on PC's like Windows is, it WOULD be fine.

I'm talking about shipping Ubuntu or Mandriva or something, not shipping Xandros in it's neutered state on a EEE.

Re: Choice. that is your opinion, but without the choice we have I Linux, I wouldn't be able to use the distro I'm using right now. I wouldn't have my choice of which panel I use, which terminal emulator I use, etc, etc.

Myself, along with most Linux users, love the choice available to us for most applications.

Mehall said: Thing is, because of M$ and OEM's being full of crap, none of them even need to install an OS at all.

If Linux was shipped on PC's like Windows is, it WOULD be fine.

I'm talking about shipping Ubuntu or Mandriva or something, not shipping Xandros in it's neutered state on a EEE.

I agree on the last. Yet, this doesn't stop Ubuntu/Linux-Distros to ship more functionality out-of-the-box, also, the -rt kernel should be installed by default, as well as regular application for the users, like a simple audio editor and video editor to mention two (I already mention many on the other post).

Mehall said: Re: Choice. that is your opinion, but without the choice we have I Linux, I wouldn't be able to use the distro I'm using right now. I wouldn't have my choice of which panel I use, which terminal emulator I use, etc, etc.

Myself, along with most Linux users, love the choice available to us for most applications.

I dunno what distro you're using right now, and it quite irrelevant. However, competition is good. Then again, what people call "choice" in Linux is just "stupidly cluttered market, full of applications which are all incomplete". How many distro are out there? The number is outrageous 300? 400? 600? 1,000? or more, this isn't competition, is a waste. Just like many other things. Competition is well done on DEs, KDE, GNOME, e17, XFCE, it's sane competition (even if a factory standard is needed).

LuisAugusto said: I agree on the last. Yet, this doesn't stop Ubuntu/Linux-Distros to ship more functionality out-of-the-box, also, the -rt kernel should be installed by default, as well as regular application for the users, like a simple audio editor and video editor to mention two (I already mention many on the other post).

kernel.org aren't daft, they know what they're doing. As do Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL, Novell, etc, etc.

There is obviously a reason they ain;t using this "RT" kernel. I have no idea what it is for, because I have never ever had to compile a kernel.

I have edited sound files, though I have yet to find something on Linux matching WMM's simplicity, so I haven't done any video editing.

Mehall said: kernel.org aren't daft, they know what they're doing. As do Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL, Novell, etc, etc.

Not an argument.

Mehall said: There is obviously a reason they ain;t using this "RT" kernel. I have no idea what it is for, because I have never ever had to compile a kernel.

It gives problems with certain drivers. I'm aware of. The point, is that, in fact, the -rt shouldn't even exist, it should be part of the main tree, because it isn't, is why there are so many problems.

Mehall said: I have edited sound files, though I have yet to find something on Linux matching WMM's simplicity, so I haven't done any video editing.

Yes, I didn't say it wasn't possible, I said the user needs to do research, which is plain wrong. Jokosher (as it the simplest of all) should be there. Also, for real Audio editing you need the Jack server which only works with the -rt kernel.

My friend runs JACK on all his installs. He uses Arch, didn;t compile his own kernel. had no issues, as far as I'm aware.

Mehall said: My friend runs JACK on all his installs. He uses Arch, didn;t compile his own kernel. had no issues, as far as I'm aware.

Fine, perhaps I phrased the wrong way. Jack without a -rt kernel runs, but it's sucks and it's pretty much useless. I don't know what your friend did, maybe Arch includes -rt by default, since it also makes the whole system faster.

Again, I don't know the reasoning, but there is probably a reason the rt kernel has not been adpoted to get rid of the driver breakages.

Mehall said: Again, I don't know the reasoning, but there is probably a reason the rt kernel has not been adpoted to get rid of the driver breakages.

It mostly brakes proprietary drivers (I bet you can guess... yes, the ATI Driver!), it also affects the NVidia driver, but there are workarounds for this one.

The ATI Driver is already so bad, I can see why they would want to leave it as is.

Until there is a workaround for both, it won't be adopted, and seeing my desktop properly is, to me, much more important than hearing w/ Jack

EDIT: Especially when those who need the rt kernel *can* get it anyway

Mehall said: The ATI Driver is already so bad, I can see why they would want to leave it as is.

Until there is a workaround for both, it won't be adopted, and seeing my desktop properly is, to me, much more important than hearing w/ Jack

EDIT: Especially when those who need the rt kernel *can* get it anyway

If the rt kernel was part of the "normal" kernel they would have to develop their drivers according to it.

LuisAugusto said: Another pretext: Nobody is forcing you to use Linux. Stop evading critics and start working on them.

I didn't say ship everything. But none of the following is shipped on any DVD I'm aware of (at least on important distros):

• VLC
• VirtualBox
• Miro
• Jokosher
• Scribus
• Blender

Would you like to download the rest of the packages? Yes - No.

And, in all seriousness, it isn't about you, what you want/care/will is completely irrelevant, what matters is what most people wants in this case, and what will appeal to more people. Not to you, or to me, since we can download, install or compile whatever we want.

[COLOR=Magenta]^_-[/COLOR]? But that would be the same as shipping Adobe CS3/4, Premier, VLC, Audacity etc on a windows install disk. Yes people expect the OS to work OOTB but no-one in their right mind would expect every useful program to be included.

The guys here at the forum and the devs would welcome constructive criticism if you made some good points or raised some serious issues.

*But*.

Your arguments do not sound reasonable, sure everyone here has some little thing that has bothered them in ubuntu, but probably the same for windows and OSX. You called yourself a critic but do not write like one, you read more like someone *Waaah This OS didn't come with everything in the world and I had to think to get it working...*

I believe that *most people* as you say seem to appreciate the choices open to you with open source and community based software. (eg if I tried to use some of my apps on my laptop they would not work, so I go and get a trimmed down version of that app to fit my hardware and never have a problem again)

And delightfully I move on to your last statement in the quote. Did you read it when you wrote it?? It would seem absolutely appropriate for you to.

](*,) Any guesses a response will include the word 'pretext'?! Lol :lolflag:

LuisAugusto said: If the rt kernel was part of the "normal" kernel they would have to develop their drivers according to it.

Not any kernel hackers that have ATI cards though, they won't be able t see their screens.

+1 to Mehashi

Mehashi said: [COLOR=Magenta]^_-[/COLOR]? But that would be the same as shipping Adobe CS3/4, Premier, VLC, Audacity etc on a windows install disk. Yes people expect the OS to work OOTB but no-one in their right mind would expect every useful program to be included.

Pardon me? They do include a usable video/audio editor. Please specify the "etc".

The guys here at the forum and the devs would welcome constructive criticism if you made some good points or raised some serious issues.

*But*.

Mehashi said: Your arguments do not sound reasonable, sure everyone here has some little thing that has bothered them in ubuntu, but probably the same for windows and OSX. You called yourself a critic but do not write like one, you read more like someone *Waaah This OS didn't come with everything in the world and I had to think to get it working...*

I don't care for myself, I care as a marketing and usability issue. Both OS X and Windows offer more out-of-the-box, specially the first one, you can edit and do pretty much everything, you can't in Ubuntu (again, the new user has to make a research).

Mehashi said: I believe that *most people* as you say seem to appreciate the choices open to you with open source and community based software. (eg if I tried to use some of my apps on my laptop they would not work, so I go and get a trimmed down version of that app to fit my hardware and never have a problem again)

And delightfully I move on to your last statement in the quote. Did you read it when you wrote it?? It would seem absolutely appropriate for you to.

](*,) Any guesses a response will include the word 'pretext'?! Lol :lolflag:

First, all no-arguments will be considerer pretexts. Saying "Linux isn't any OS" or "We like choice" isn't an argument, regardless of how painful is for many linux users to accept it.

People appreciate choice as in competition, a bloated "market" or "menu" of applications which do the same task, but none of them do it right, it's just stupid, specially, when it's supposed to be a community.

Users prefer 1 good application to 500 mediocre, incomplete, eternal-alpha, wrong coded, buggy and un-integrated apps (this isn't the case in all scenarios, tough).

LuisAugusto said: Pardon me? They do include a usable video/audio editor. Please specify the "etc".

I have an Xp machine right next to me, what was that included video editor again?! Maybe I misplaced it alongside my MS customer support number somewhere...

LuisAugusto said: I don't care for myself, I care as a marketing and usability issue. Both OS X and Windows offer more out-of-the-box, specially the first one, you can edit and do pretty much everything, you can't in Ubuntu (again, the new user has to make a research).

It might be worth remembering the price difference here. OSX is good but expensive and when something goes wrong they took my friends mac for two weeks. MS is ok while it works, but then you try getting decent support that you paid for... good luck. Ubuntu has some problems - but - (here we go again) it is free and has the most attentive support I have known.

LuisAugusto said: ...pretexts.

[COLOR=Magenta]Yay for me[/COLOR]!

LuisAugusto said: People appreciate choice as in competition, a bloated "market" or "menu" of applications which do the same task, but none of them do it right, it's just stupid, specially, when it's supposed to be a community.

Actually I think you will find it is community demand for these apps that get them created. Just because three terminals look the same to you does not mean that each does not have its own special purpose or function to set it apart from the others. I find it infuriating that I can not use two task managers at once in windows but for *nix this is not a problem. Each is set slightly different to give me a constant overview of everything. Out of the box...

[COLOR=Magenta]^_*[/COLOR]

the Windows Movie Maker is the included Video Editor, and it is a very good tool for basic users.

[COLOR=Magenta]LOL[/COLOR], and it is not included in XP professional! ;)

Having used this type of app before though I would highly reccomend blender to anyone who wanted to do this. It is open source and available for windows!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR]

Mehashi said: [COLOR=Magenta]LOL[/COLOR], and it is not included in XP professional! ;)

Having used this type of app before though I would highly reccomend blender to anyone who wanted to do this. It is open source and available for windows!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR]

Is It not? 0.o

You know, when coal was king, there were a few guys out there who understood that something better was possible. They built riggs, used their brains and started drilling for oil. Coal is still around but it's a very limiting type of fuel. The future belongs to those who try new things, who have fun finding new avenues and who solve problems one at a time. One day Windows will also still be around, but bigger and better things will have moved it aside. 10 years? 20 years? The day will come. One thing for sure - Linux, in general, is gaining a lot of ground and the open source movement even more. Just thought I'd give my nickel's worth....

Mehall said: Is It not? 0.o

Yes it is. At least on every single machine I have ever seen with Windows XP and Vista.

Mehashi said: I have an Xp machine right next to me, what was that included video editor again?! Maybe I misplaced it alongside my MS customer support number somewhere...

You did.

Mehashi said: It might be worth remembering the price difference here. OSX is good but expensive and when something goes wrong they took my friends mac for two weeks. MS is ok while it works, but then you try getting decent support that you paid for... good luck.

Ubuntu has some problems - but - (here we go again) it is free and has the most attentive support I have known.

I'm not comparing the relation price-quality, I'm just objectively analyzing the features that all those OS offer to the user out of the box. And, comparing the support of the community with pro support is absolutely stupid, if you go to a Windows forum or the Mac OS X forum you'll find help too. If you want to compare services do it with Canonical professional support.

Mehall said: [COLOR=Magenta]Yay for me[/COLOR]!

...

Mehall said: Actually I think you will find it is community demand for these apps that get them created. Just because three terminals look the same to you does not mean that each does not have its own special purpose or function to set it apart from the others.

You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. 99% of the OSS application are created by one guy that decided to start making it for one feature, regardless of how many others exist in which he could add his feature. In fact, the OSS community is fulled of forks exactly for this reason.

Mehall said: I find it infuriating that I can not use two task managers at once in windows but for *nix this is not a problem. Each is set slightly different to give me a constant overview of everything. Out of the box...

Such a specific feature for a incredibly small market. It's good, in fact, that there's such a feature, but it has little, if something to do about the issue we're discussing.

No! I just checked that machine. The only installed video editors are blender and adobe elements that I installed myself.

It does not come with media player either, I had to download that seperately!

Do not get me wrong, I do use windows as well as *nix! I have found that with both I prefer the lightest install possible (without all the rubbish that is usually installed with OS) and then add in the apps that I want. Clean registries that way!

I know a lot of people just use the apps they were given, but I dont think that neccessarily means they are the best apps for them. It is a shame that the average user does not even know that there is a choice out there, let alone want to look through that choice.

If microsoft did not have such a monopoly then third party devs would start porting games and apps to more platforms. That is the biggest problem at the moment. It is unfair to expect ubuntu to provide every program you need, microsoft do not do it and mac do not either (although they seem to have some agreement with Adobe). I appreciate that every platform has basic functions but these are limited and for the productive user alternatives are needed. These are generally bought from a third party, many of who are not providing for *nix. This is changing though. Ultimately it is a far wider issue that has been raised than what is included in the installation.

Re: Drivers, look to the manufacturer of the equipment for that. I do not think I have ever installed windows drivers for my GPU or other hardware other than the initial setup (much like ubuntu) that use limited performance.

Keep on with gusto and you will be happy with any OS, but sit back and expect it to do it for you and any OS will let you down eventually!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR]

Mehashi said: No! I just checked that machine. The only installed video editors are blender and adobe elements that I installed myself.

It does not come with media player either, I had to download that seperately!

What? That's absolute non-sense. I don't care if you're, in fact, saying the truth or not, but it's irrelevant, since regardless of Microsoft approach, giving basic functionality out of the box is always better. A family went to a trip, let's open Windows Movie Maker, or iMovie.

On Ubuntu? Crap. I can't find a good video editor. Why? He first tried with LiVeS, then with PiTiVi, then Kino, etc, and finally, he finds KDenlive (but, on the forums, people say is a KDE application and that it would need Qt and KDE libs and bla bla bla BS, but at the end, he finish using that one).

Mehashi said: Do not get me wrong, I do use windows as well as *nix! I have found that with both I prefer the lightest install possible (without all the rubbish that is usually installed with OS) and then add in the apps that I want. Clean registries that way!

I know a lot of people just use the apps they were given, but I dont think that neccessarily means they are the best apps for them. It is a shame that the average user does not even know that there is a choice out there, let alone want to look through that choice.

I never said that either, if they don't like them, they can find a new one, but not-offering anything is playing on another league.

Mehashi said: If microsoft did not have such a monopoly then third party devs would start porting games and apps to more platforms. That is the biggest problem at the moment. It is unfair to expect ubuntu to provide every program you need, microsoft do not do it and mac do not either (although they seem to have some agreement with Adobe).

Don't play the "it's microsoft fault". I'm talking about OSS apps exclusively, since I consider the OSS to be a better development strategy (when well executed, which is very rare). Nor I asked for PhotoShop CS 4, Pro Tools or Final Cut equivalents.

Mehashi said: I appreciate that every platform has basic functions but these are limited and for the productive user alternatives are needed. These are generally bought from a third party, many of who are not providing for *nix. This is changing though. Ultimately it is a far wider issue that has been raised than what is included in the installation.

No, most people live with their computer with just the defaults.

Mehashi said: Re: Drivers, look to the manufacturer of the equipment for that. I do not think I have ever installed windows drivers for my GPU or other hardware other than the initial setup (much like ubuntu) that use limited performance.

How is this related to the issues I mentioned? Oh, yes, it isn't. Try to follow the conversation please.

Mehashi said: Keep on with gusto and you will be happy with any OS, but sit back and expect it to do it for you and any OS will let you down eventually!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR]

Such a trivial argument. The point little boy, *_is that most people doesn't know how to customize their OS, neither they have to_*, unless the Linux community understands this, they're doomed.

LuisAugusto said: What? That's absolute non-sense. I don't care if you're, in fact, saying the truth or not, but it's irrelevant...

I am, in fact telling the truth!

LuisAugusto said: On Ubuntu? Crap. I can't find a good video editor. Why?

If you are still having this problem I do recommend blender, it is cross platform.

LuisAugusto said: No, most people live with their computer with just the defaults.

Yes sadly I agree, I said that. But I also said *productive* users.

LuisAugusto said: How is this related to the issues I mentioned? Oh, yes, it isn't. Try to follow the conversation please.

It is not related to you, but one of the reccurring subjects in this kind of reccurring thread. Drivers do seem to give people problems in ubuntu, I would be the first to acknowledge that as I have had those problems myself, but this (maybe not by Luis) is constantly blamed on canonical by frustrated new-comers.

Personally I think that once a few games are ported to *nix we could see a jump up in interest as the worry of not being able to play some favourite game seems to be putting off a lot of people.

LuisAugusto said: Such a trivial argument. The point little boy...

[COLOR=Magenta]LOL[/COLOR] *that* tickled me... if only you knew!

I agree with a few of the points that come up in these threads and it can be frustrating when I encounter a problem and there is no pointer as to what to do! This for a new user or a pc illiterate would be maybe enough to put them off?

More than anything that is why offering helpful criticism to canonical will help make ubuntu a better os. In 7.10 I fought to get my pc up and running but now with 8.10 I installed and it works straight away, so progress is definately being made!

[COLOR=Magenta]+1[/COLOR] to gerryb as well!

I agree it is not there yet, but I dont think it fair to say it is failing either!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_*[/COLOR]

Mehashi said: I am, in fact telling the truth!

It's nice to know you aren't a liar :-P (Still irrelevant tough).

Mehashi said: If you are still having this problem I do recommend blender, it is cross platform.

It isn't my problem actually. And, Blender isn't there by default, is it? Neither it seems like a new user is going to click on the 3D suit to edit video XD.

Mehashi said: Yes sadly I agree, I said that. But I also said *productive* users.

We are talking about most users, which are certainly not a productive user.

Mehashi said: It is not related to you

It isn't related to this conversation.

Mehashi said: but one of the reccurring subjects in this kind of reccurring thread. Drivers do seem to give people problems in ubuntu, I would be the first to acknowledge that as I have had those problems myself, but this (maybe not by Luis) is constantly blamed on canonical by frustrated new-comers.

On my home, we are discussing which Pizza ingredients we want, should I bring that to our conversation too?

Mehashi said: Personally I think that once a few games are ported to *nix we could see a jump up in interest as the worry of not being able to play some favourite game seems to be putting off a lot of people.

I agree.

Mehashi said: [COLOR=Magenta]LOL[/COLOR] *that* tickled me... if only you knew!

¿? :-P

Mehashi said: I agree with a few of the points that come up in these threads and it can be frustrating when I encounter a problem and there is no pointer as to what to do! This for a new user or a pc illiterate would be maybe enough to put them off?

Most of the time.

Mehashi said: More than anything that is why offering helpful criticism to canonical will help make ubuntu a better os. In 7.10 I fought to get my pc up and running but now with 8.10 I installed and it works straight away, so progress is definately being made!

[COLOR=Magenta]+1[/COLOR] to gerryb as well!

I agree it is not there yet, but I dont think it fair to say it is failing either!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_*[/COLOR]

Considering Ubuntu #1 Bug... it's certainly having a tough time, Linux is still .7%. I critic Ubuntu, because, even when it makes big mistakes, and sometimes developers and project leaders are stupidly close, is the one which seems to understand users better (from the big guys, Mint and similar are good too).

I'm an OpenSUSE (mostly, I use Ubuntu 9.04 too) user myself , but I won't ever recommend OpenSUSE 11.1 with KDE 4.2 (I use KDE 4.3, actually) to any new user, just because everything seems harder, and Yast, even as powerful as it is, it's absolutely wrong designed (GUI).

Ubuntu needs realistic critics too.

Im so sorry I didnt realise that you were the discussion. I thought other people may want to read through this (as I did) to see a balanced discussion on "Why I think Ubuntu is failing". Something tells me you take this far too seriously!!

Aside from the 'lack of games' issue, and the driver problems I think another reason that ubuntu has such a small market share is simply because people do not seem to know it exists! Maybe more mainstream advertising could help?

If we trust and enjoy an app or OS then recommending it to others will help that cause! I have got a few people to try ubuntu and a few others who just wanted the desktop effects so there are at least some attracting factors.

Unfortunately my best guy friend had to downgrade from an Ati x1950 to an nVidia 5600gt before he could use the effects (this was back in 7.10) and wasnt too happy about the waste of hardware. This spoilt his experience and if it wasnt for me giving him 8.10 he would have given up, fortunately 8.10 works for the ati card!

I think canonical are doing a great job but there is definate room for improvement as far as new-user-friendliness goes!

And funnily enough as I type my ubuntu has decided to refuse to play videos. Stubborn!

[COLOR=Magenta]^_^[/COLOR]

From where I have been watching, Ubuntu has done very well. Having installed it, I can see why. They hardware detection is very good and the range of packages that can easily be installed is great.

It looks like sound and video will need some tweaking and Blender & K3d (OpenGL-reliant) do not display properly post-install (fixed with a tweak). However, it is the closest I have come to a Windows experience with Linux (but I haven't tried Xandros or Linspire) so I'm not surprised it has become popular.

I'm not sure that Linux will beat Windows anytime soon because

There are some caveats to the above, namely that many countries are looking to break the MS stranglehold and are explorng open-source. I'm not saying that Linux will never get a greater share but I think it will take time.

• People like what they are used to in computing
• People are scared of having to get into the nuts and bolts
• Many software apps that most people use don't run on Linux and for personal and industry/organisation reasons. they own't go for linux alternatives
• Public awareness is low and MS & some hardware manufacturers want it to stay that way

I installed 8.04 something as a samba server. Painful but got it to work. now has no support try to install stuff through synaptic but none of the programs listed it can find. Installed later version on another machine to findit had no wireless networking at all and it was a known problem. Installed 9.10 and it didnt see network on MB so put in another card. No Ubuntu fresh installed of any version ive tried will tell you what hardware it sees whether it can use it or not. No where does it tell anything about general hardware. Some say use this menu pull down others say that pull down. NONE are to be found so where did they get their installs? Support drives me nuts. one says use sudo apt-get install hdwinfo or sudo apt-get install hardinfo neither does anything but say it cant find it. So where does it look? the synaptic package manager cant find em. I tried to install zoneminder. Getting software is a pain cause it can never seem to find what you want or the dependencies. tried to install zone minder after got a ether card ubuntu could see. but synaptic cant find zoneminder and the debs need dependencies it can't resolve. I love the stability of linux but installing software has lost me all my hair. Till i go back to XP as it just installs and works. (with regular reboots)

We just need to wait a bit longer that's all... it's too early to tell.

hoppipolla said: We just need to wait a bit longer that's all... it's too early to tell.

I agree that linux has problems. Wireless sucks and thats when you can get it to work. I think the biggest problem is that linux just upgrades to draw attention to itself. It does not really fix problems. In my attempt to replace my nt4 machine I have installed everything from ubuntu 5.10 to 8.04. fc3. ubuntu lite,deli,damn small linux. Thats just the beginning of the list. I even bought a wireless card that has linux drivers. Between 5.10 and 8.04 I did not find any added features that were usefull. 8.04 was more bloated then earlier versions but not with anything that added to productivity. Also so many things are getting hardwired into linux distro's. I guess we are not working on the Ideal that linux is a os that you can choose your own programs because if you are not a full blown programer thats not happening. Ubuntu probally is the easiest to use but check out this. They ARE going to come out in 6 months with another version and whats more they are going to toss out your old version from the archives so if you did not use wget and build your own archive your out of luck and they do not care what version was the best. Or what problem the new version has or that they never solved the problems with the old version so you inhereted them. Oh well thanks to a windows proxy server I can now get on the internet with linux. I am not meaning this to batch linux or ubuntu I like it but hey guys wake up linux 8.04 loaded size was 10 times the size of winxp and I still have to use winxp when I need to actually do sometng besides browse the web and I could not even do that with out using windows.

dvdljns said: I agree that linux has problems. Wireless sucks and thats when you can get it to work. I think the biggest problem is that linux just upgrades to draw attention to itself. It does not really fix problems. In my attempt to replace my nt4 machine I have installed everything from ubuntu 5.10 to 8.04. fc3. ubuntu lite,deli,damn small linux. Thats just the beginning of the list. I even bought a wireless card that has linux drivers. Between 5.10 and 8.04 I did not find any added features that were usefull. 8.04 was more bloated then earlier versions but not with anything that added to productivity. Also so many things are getting hardwired into linux distro's. I guess we are not working on the Ideal that linux is a os that you can choose your own programs because if you are not a full blown programer thats not happening. Ubuntu probally is the easiest to use but check out this. They ARE going to come out in 6 months with another version and whats more they are going to toss out your old version from the archives so if you did not use wget and build your own archive your out of luck and they do not care what version was the best. Or what problem the new version has or that they never solved the problems with the old version so you inhereted them. Oh well thanks to a windows proxy server I can now get on the internet with linux. I am not meaning this to batch linux or ubuntu I like it but hey guys wake up linux 8.04 loaded size was 10 times the size of winxp and I still have to use winxp when I need to actually do sometng besides browse the web and I could not even do that with out using windows.

I wasn't really talking about "Linux", I was talking about Ubuntu. I think it will become awesome in the next few years and gain market share because of it :)

Wireless is great, but there aren't many drivers due to the evil hardware makers using closed ideas and sources.

NoaHall said: Wireless is great, but there aren't many drivers due to the evil hardware makers using closed ideas and sources.

Yes. Damn those evil hardware makers for making a product, selling it at a price to make profits for their company's shareholders, and not disclosing the nut-and-bolts of how their product works to the general public.

hoppipolla said: I wasn't really talking about "Linux", I was talking about Ubuntu. I think it will become awesome in the next few years and gain market share because of it :)

A market is, by definition, a real or virtual space where goods and services are bought and sold. A product that is given away for free can never attain a true "market share".

Every wireless device I've tried has worked out of the box since Jaunty, except for one, as I didn't pay attention to the Windows only sticker on the box when I bought it. It only took half an hour to get that one to work. So I would say wireless works pretty good.

@dvdljns

Check and see if you have all the repositories enabled in System-->Administration-->Software Sources.

detroit/zero said: A market is, by definition, a real or virtual space where goods and services are bought and sold. A product that is given away for free can never attain a true "market share".

I see o.O

Here is my take on Ubuntu...

The installation process can be a bit of a bitch if you don't know enough. I think there really needs to be a very default option of "push this button and it'll install just fine, you can sit back and relax now". I don't care if it's easy for you to install, I won't my mom and 5 year-old nephew to be able to install it EASILY.

The next issue is reliability and usability. This is something that Apple has done perfectly. Most of my friends have Macs and they love them. They tell me over and over just how easy it is to use. I agree mostly, **** very rarely breaks, I rarely have to ever go into some settings to fix things.

Here is what I think we should do... Compile a list of the top 20 things people do with their Ubuntu box and break it down to be as simple as possible. With each revision we add the next thing on the list and make it as simple as possible.

I chose its doing great because technically that is true. Got ubuntu netbook remix netbooks in BestBuy and that was not like that a year ago... I have seen Ubuntu OS discs in BestBuy as well and I did not see that over a year and a half ago... So its growing and being talked about more online and more and more users are signing up on forums which means popularity is growing. Its getting easier and easier and more beautiful each release so with a few more releases and when it gets a bit more polished I think it will pick up even more people and so on. It's growing quite well in my opinion!

Yeah.

This thread was boring, old and tired 10 months ago when it was started.

Topic unsubscribed.

Unstable software - Absolutely, I don't even have to explain this one.

Not enough programs - It's more a matter of quality over quantity in this case. Linux has plenty of programs, but many of them aren't up to snuff.

Support not up to scratch - Linux has pretty good support. Canonical and RedHat exist.

Hard to configure and tweak - This is really dependent on the user than it is on how dificult. If the user has only used Windows their entire life, then of course Gnome will be difficult to configure.

"deadly updates" - AB-SO-LUTE-LY

Developing in every direction all at once - This is the nature of Open Source software: Develop in every direction without a common goal, at least, that's what it ends with.

It's doing great, There's no issue - You'd be ignorant to say this.

Not known by general public - People blame this most often, but people know about Linux. If you told everybody on Earth about Ubuntu, there would be more users, but there wouldn't be that many more. Remember, Windows still fills the needs of these individuals.

Not enough OEM-preinstalled / advertised options - Plenty, and it reinforces the point I stated above.

I'll unsubscribe here because I know I'm going to be trolled by fanboys from this point onward.

Frak said: Unstable software - Absolutely, I don't even have to explain this one.

even the default Ubuntu Gnome software?

Not enough programs - It's more a matter of quality over quantity in this case. Linux has plenty of programs, but many of them aren't up to snuff.

This is a support issue.

Support not up to scratch - Linux has pretty good support. Canonical and RedHat exist.

Yeah I would say support is alright :)

"deadly updates" - AB-SO-LUTE-LY

Kind of, but this will improve with time and no-one said you HAVE to upgrade every 6 months o.O I do agree it creates a problem though, I hope this is smoothed. I really have never experienced many issues though and it will get better as hardware support improves.

Developing in every direction all at once - This is the nature of Open Source software: Develop in every direction without a common goal, at least, that's what it ends with.

yeah it's also the nature of truly "free" software, people need to have the freedom to do this :)

It's doing great, There's no issue - You'd be ignorant to say this.

I think most issues will get smoothed out over time and refined as open source becomes more popular :)

Not known by general public - People blame this most often, but people know about Linux. If you told everybody on Earth about Ubuntu, there would be more users, but there wouldn't be that many more. Remember, Windows still fills the needs of these individuals.

yeah there's a point here, many people are happy on Win and Ubuntu doesn't tick all the boxes that Windows does for everyone, mainly due to support but also due to user-friendliness. Again, this will take time and a gradual move due to Ubuntu discs being available more freely and cheaply than Windows discs (and as they increase in quality they will probably seem more tempting!)

Not enough OEM-preinstalled / advertised options - Plenty, and it reinforces the point I stated above.

This is steadily increasing, and will do for as long as Ubuntu is going strong IMO (I don't mean strong financially, I mean strong in terms of development and improvement)

I'll unsubscribe here because I know I'm going to be trolled by fanboys from this point onward.

Sorry, I just had to write this as I really wanted to tackle the points raised! :)

I have been using Ubuntu since 5.10 (Breezy) and have had no particular problems with hardware or distro installation but... I have noticed that yes, problems do not get fixed. I am particularly upset with the relationship between Ubuntu and Audacity. Audacity formerly worked flawlessly and now it simply doesn't (work). What gives with accepting beta versions of an application and making that version the only available version? I'd like to see the developers take a big time-out on the upgrade treadmill and address basics that need fixing. Sound in particular seems problematic for a lot of folks. Redmond likes to tout flash without fix. Why go down the same road? Don't get me wrong I still support and advocate for Ubuntu but... it is a frustration.

Well, about the biggest problem I can see that actually has to do with Ubuntu or Linux itself (and is a problem in the OSS community in general) is that documentation tends to be out of date (Ubuntu generally seems to run about a version behind) and/or incomplete (not so much with Ubuntu itself, but a lot of OSS, whether for Windows or Linux, has very sparse documentation). This probably re-enforces the perception that "only geeks can handle Linux," even though I think the system itself is quite user-friendly.

Most of the other roadblocks that Linux is facing, though, have more to do with the difficulties of overthrowing an entrenched monopoly.

Lack of support from software vendors is Ubuntu's (or any other Linux distro's) nail in the coffin for me to use it 100% of the time as my main OS; namely Home Recording, Games and some Engineering applications I need for my degree. Bound to Windows for those sadly. Although in my own time I am using Ubuntu about 80% of the time, the other 20% being Music production in XP these days.

I don't know if it's failing per se, you could say more and more people are hearing about Linux and trying it out. That's good, whatever way you look at it.

Ubuntu is definitely getting better(And Karmic is the most stable release yet, though Lucid will probably surpass it.), so I honestly don't think we should be worrying about this right now, since it seems to be going in the right direction.

easy... its the same reason we drive gas powered cars and use qwerty keyboards.. as technology ages, sometimes it can engulf a majority market share and when it is outdated, and new technologies arrive, it is hard to shift from them.. windows owned the market early, and such it established itself in the same regard as the qwerty... windows based applications are wide and populous and until derivatives of all that software can migrate to linux, people will stick with microcrap... itunes is a prime example.. i need itunes for my phone, simple.. i have a mac mini which i can use for that @ the moment, but might only have my lenovo when i go to college.. win is only suitable option for me there (tried osx on it, rly hard to get going and no graphics support)(might do an osx86 / linux dual or tripple boot) but the average person isnt going to know how to do that

Market Share != User Base or Popularity.

MasterNetra said: Market Share != User Base or Popularity.

In what way? I mean, given it was accurate, I don't see how it wouldn't be.

hoppipolla said: Kind of, but this will improve with time and no-one said you HAVE to upgrade every 6 months o.O I do agree it creates a problem though, I hope this is smoothed.

The problem hasn't improved in several years now. I don't get the impression that Canonical even realises the severity of the issue (upgrade breaking installations and most people advising clean reinstalls every six months). I'm pretty sure it's one of the major reasons why people dump Ubuntu and go back to Windows. Of course, they won't vote in a poll like this, because they are no longer here.

Ubuntu's popularity and install base seems to have stagnated for a while now. I don't have hard numbers, it's just an observation based on number of active forum members, distro stats, media coverage, and general "hype". Two years ago a lot of people seemed to talk about Ubuntu, it was all over the net, and now it seems to be relatively quiet.

Releasing an early beta version like 9.10 two days after the polished Windows 7 hit the shelves was mind-boggling poor marketing and PR. Of all releases, that was the one that really needed to be super-stable and highly polished, causing as little problems for as many people as possible.

And it was still brown.

I must atmitt, though your arguement has some truth in it, the 24/7 support is avaliable, cheaper than it costs to buy windows to get that support, and the quality of said support is exceptional and M$'s support is One of the worst events of my life.

On the other hand, Ubuntu has less refinement that Windows, but almost everyone here develops Ubuntu with no real gain to themselves so please be sure not to insult the developers, they are the best people on earth imo.

Finally i personally dont see why adopting tonnes of people to Linux actually matters, ok maybe we will get more attention from OEM's and software developers, but Linux is not immune to virus's, it does have holes, less than Windows and Mac yes, by a long shot, but with people comes virus's, and the forum is already massive, i cannot imagine a forum with everyone who uses a computer on it asking for support with this, that and the other. The main reason imho is Linux is seen as a "geeky" OS, and more importantly, an OS that is hard to use unless you are a genius. Though this is not true, for Ubuntu at least, it is very differant to Windows. Remember there are people out there who honestly have no idea what OS they are even using and think downloading and burning an iso should be a contracted job for a PC specialist :D

1- lot of software won't work 2- lot of things need much time to tweak 3- fans do not want to see what is wrong, they are just happy with whatever canonical release to them. 4- 6 months may be not enough to complete a good release

Okay, so don't upgrade every time a new release comes up, upgrade only to LTSes (and then only after a few weeks). Some people do that, and it works for them. Just think of the non-LTS versions as betas of the next LTS.

Windows would also get a lot of flak if it had to release every six months, probably.

In my opinion, if you release every six months, come hell or high water, you'll either get new features or improved stability, but to ask for both is impossible. I choose features and decent stability (which is what I happen to get now, lucky me).

Mornedhel said: Okay, so don't upgrade every time a new release comes up, upgrade only to LTSes (and then only after a few weeks).

Works for people who don't mind using old and dated software. Once you start adding new stuff, the purpose of the LTS is defeated. 8.04 (LTS) shipped with Firefox 3 Beta 4, so it can't even be said that LTS releases are generally more stable. It does not have 3.5.x even now, which is begging for security issues right there.

Windows has service packs and constant updates, and you can use new software without any problems. There are no dependency issues.

mivo said: Works for people who don't mind using old and dated software. Once you start adding new stuff, the purpose of the LTS is defeated. 8.04 (LTS) shipped with Firefox 3 Beta 4, so it can't even be said that LTS releases are generally more stable. It does not have 3.5.x even now, which is begging for security issues right there.

The current version of Firefox in Hardy is indeed 3.0.15, which is *three weeks old*. The 3.0 branch continues to receive security updates.

Shipping with a beta Firefox by default was generally considered a bad move, but it was mitigated by the fact that you could still install Firefox 2, and including the 3.x branch was mostly done so that users who would run Hardy for three years would still be able to run a browser that was just out at the time.

I don't really get why "the purpose of the LTS is defeated". Do you mean it is not stable anymore ? So you do agree that you can't have new features and stability both ? If you absolutely must run the newest versions of your applications, then, yes, you should revert to Windows-style hunt-and-apply installations.

mivo said: Windows has service packs and constant updates, and you can use new software without any problems. There are no dependency issues.

One of those updates broke my sound on Vista. Despite my applying all updates, sound still does not come out of my front laptop jacks (at least not until I uninstalled Vista, many months after the update). I could only get sound from the laptop speakers.

The "no dependency issues" is indeed elegantly addressed... by having every package using its own versions of the libraries needed, with little emphasis on centralization. I refer you to the "DLL hell" article on Wikipedia, which mostly refers to pre-WinXP dependency issues, but also describes the steps needed to mitigate dependency hell on more modern versions.

Like it or not, I find more Deadly updates with Linux OSs in general than in any other operating system. A friend of mine has stopped using Ubuntu because of this "In windows and Mac you update your computer, and its all good, in Ubuntu you update, get a few nice tweaks, but your screen doesn't work"

of course I'm aware thats not entirely true windows updates periodically F-Up Computers. Still, it pretty annoying to not be able to use my CRT with Koala, And it seems like the number of corporate technical supporters is dwindling. Where is My ATI / AMD Support?

Mornedhel said: The current version of Firefox in Hardy is indeed 3.0.15, which is *three weeks old*. The 3.0 branch continues to receive security updates.

The current version, however, is 3.5.5, which I use on both Windows 7 and Arch Linux. It not only has the latest security fixes (which you may also have in 3.0.15), but also the newest features and functionality (which you do not have in 3.0.15). I prefer to use up-to-date software.

The "no dependency issues" is indeed elegantly addressed... by having every package using its own versions of the libraries needed, with little emphasis on centralization. I refer you to the "DLL hell" article on Wikipedia, which mostly refers to pre-WinXP dependency issues ...

Exactly, it "refers to pre-XP dependency issues". Would you like me to dig up some articles that deal with Linux issues pre-2001? They would be just as relevant to today's situation. :)

Windows and Windows software no doubt takes up more disk space than Linux or Linux software. But how relevant is that anymore? I remember the days when my computers had no hard drive at all, or how much I paid for my first one, with a whooping 10 MB (not GB), costing me a fortune. But today? 1 TB HDDs are around 70-80 Euro now, even cheaper in the US, and I haven't had storage problems on my main computers in the past ten or so years at all.

I like how efficient Linux uses disk space, though. This allows me to continue to use an older laptop to its full potential, with its small 20 GB HDD.

I'm not saying that Windows is a perfectly designed platform. Far from it. But it isn't the BOSDing DLL Hell that it was in the 90s anymore (notably ME). I do feel that a new major release only every few years with interim security patches, frequent updates and service packs is far better working than Ubuntu's 6-months releases that in many cases require reinstalls. Not to mention that old bugs linger and new ones are introduced, which are then not fixed before the next release and join the club of the lingering bugs of past releases.

This is one of the reasons why I switched one Ubuntu box to Arch Linux. It is closer to how Windows works, in terms of updates. I still have a computer with Ubuntu, but 9.10 wasn't a good experience for me (8.10 was the best release since the 2006er releases, I feel).

This thread is about "why Ubuntu is failing". I don't think it's failing, but I do believe it is stagnating. For me, one of the main reasons is the unreliable upgrade feature and the apparently too short release cycles. OpenSuSE seems to manage, Ubuntu doesn't.

I probably shouldn't have included the reference to Windows, because these issues are independent of what another OS does. But then again, Ubuntu tends to be the distro that curious Windows users who are interested in a change, something new, or who simply want to broaden their horizon look at first. I used to think it was the best Linux introduction, too. I'm not sure if that is still true. I think OpenSuSE may be a better introduction currently, based on how people react when I hand them Live CDs.

mivo said: The current version, however, is 3.5.5, which I use on both Windows 7 and Arch Linux. It not only has the latest security fixes (which you may also have in 3.0.15), but also the newest features and functionality (which you do not have in 3.0.15). I prefer to use up-to-date software.

Ah, yes, well, then scheduled releases are not for you at all, I'm afraid. Most scheduled-release distributions' policies are "introduce only bug fixes and security releases to a released distribution", to sum it up. I see you run a rolling-release distribution; this makes more sense for you. I do wish there were a rolling distribution as user-friendly as Ubuntu is. Arch or Debian seem to be more involved (I have not tried Arch, but plan to).

mivo said: Exactly, it "refers to pre-XP dependency issues". Would you like me to dig up some articles that deal with Linux issues pre-2001? They would be just as relevant to today's situation. :)

My point was that Windows still suffers from forms of DLL hell nowadays. The prevalent way for software distributors to solve that problem seems to be "bundle the DLLs with the software". This approach has pros and cons. I like the centralized approach more.

mivo said: Windows and Windows software no doubt takes up more disk space than Linux or Linux software. But how relevant is that anymore? I remember the days when my computers had no hard drive at all, or how much I paid for my first one, with a whooping 10 MB (not GB), costing me a fortune. But today? 1 TB HDDs are around 70-80 Euro now, even cheaper in the US, and I haven't had storage problems on my main computers in the past ten or so years at all.

I like how efficient Linux uses disk space, though. This allows me to continue to use an older laptop to its full potential, with its small 20 GB HDD.

Well, as you point out, it's still relevant for older systems. Also, SSD drives are *not* cheap for that kind of size...

mivo said: This is one of the reasons why I switched one Ubuntu box to Arch Linux. It is closer to how Windows works, in terms of updates. I still have a computer with Ubuntu, but 9.10 wasn't a good experience for me (8.10 was the best release since the 2006er releases, I feel).

I think Debian testing would be closer to how Windows works, if you installed your packages by hand. Arch updates not only the system but also the applications themselves, which Windows does not do (uugghh, applications flashing a pop-up to my face about the newest version being released...).

mivo said: This thread is about "why Ubuntu is failing". I don't think it's failing, but I do believe it is stagnating. For me, one of the main reasons is the unreliable upgrade feature and the apparently too short release cycles. OpenSuSE seems to manage, Ubuntu doesn't.

Ubuntu (and Canonical) clearly need to throw more resources at QA if they want to keep up the six-months cycle (which they do, as part of their appeal is supposed to be "always the latest features on the latest distribution", and that relies mostly on Gnome). I'll agree completely that they seem to be lagging behind other major distributions.

mivo said: I probably shouldn't have included the reference to Windows, because these issues are independent of what another OS does. But then again, Ubuntu tends to be the distro that curious Windows users who are interested in a change, something new, or who simply want to broaden their horizon look at first. I used to think it was the best Linux introduction, too. I'm not sure if that is still true. I think OpenSuSE may be a better introduction currently, based on how people react when I hand them Live CDs.

That mostly depends on out-of-the-box support, I'd say. New users are going to be disappointed if their sound doesn't work, for instance (hello Ubuntu PulseAudio integration !).

I am a newish user to ubuntu 8.04 onwards and I am highly disapointed with things being ok in one version then broke again in the latest version.

E.g: Upgraded (cough) to Ubuntu 9.10 found 3G wireless connection down (Fine in Ubuntu 9.04), Bluetooth dead (Flaky but usable in 9.04), Sound issues OpenAL (If it doesn't work leave it out).

I for one am sick off promoting ubuntu to friends just for the latest release to break what was working in previous versions making me look a fool.

I have noticed the x.04 versions are more stable than the beta like x.10 versions wouldn't it be better to make one release a year and get it right than making linux users look like morons like this, not happy not happy at all & I liked Ubuntu more than the other distros if these problems aren't fixed in Ubuntu 10.4, then i am off to another distro (maybe for good).

Releasing os's that act like betas is the reason i don't like M$ in the first place but 9.10 makes windows job far easier, I mean an OS reliant for its software via the internet and the modem is recognised but can't connect, jesus.

I may as well call it a day and go buy Windows 7 is this is Ubuntu's idea of a new improved OS (More like Linux's Vista).

Ubuntu 9.10 is an embarrasment to newcomers and should never have been released from beta, its more of a downgrade to 9.04 rather than an improvement and an upgrade, basically its a joke, that makes M$ job a lot easier. :(

Also noticed stupid dependency mistakes in Ubuntu like this program requires installing 3 files, you have each one each relys on the next and none of them will install without the other (which you have them all they just block each other)

I don't think Ubuntu is failing.

However I can think of TWO major improvements...

1) Make it easy to purchase proprietary drivers for video, audio, etc. (preferably purchase a CD for about $9.99 from Amazon).

2) Ubuntu should move to a browser based-operating system (similar to Chrome).

I suggest 2) because IMO that's where it's all going. so we Ubuntu users should try to get there first!

Thanks

terry@softreq.com said: I don't think Ubuntu is failing.

However I can think of TWO major improvements...

1) Make it easy to purchase proprietary drivers for video, audio, etc. (preferably purchase a CD for about $9.99 from Amazon).

2) Ubuntu should move to a browser based-operating system (similar to Chrome).

I suggest 2) because IMO that's where it's all going. so we Ubuntu users should try to get there first!

Thanks

I'd disagree with that being "where it's all" going. Cloud/Browser based OS's are a good idea for small devices, but for a full desktop all it does is allow massive corporations to dictate what you can and cannot do...And a large number of people who use ubuntu use it to prevent just that.

terry@softreq.com said: I don't think Ubuntu is failing.

However I can think of TWO major improvements...

1) Make it easy to purchase proprietary drivers for video, audio, etc. (preferably purchase a CD for about $9.99 from Amazon).

2) Ubuntu should move to a browser based-operating system (similar to Chrome).

I suggest 2) because IMO that's where it's all going. so we Ubuntu users should try to get there first!

Thanks

I think that plenty of people might have a thing or two to say about Point #1, but as for me, I think that point #2 is a bit of a problem for people who choose to run servers and use terminal. If it were a catch-all GUI without the easily accessible innards, it wouldn't be Ubuntu anymore. While I think that the Chrome approach to an OS is very interesting and something that should be explored, I don't think that there's any room for that approach in Ubuntu.

I do not think Ubuntu is failing but it is actually "Not known by general public" and it is also "Hard to configure and tweak" for the average user (whatever it may mean) coming from Windows.

As we already know, most people simply use the OS already installed in the computer they bought and don't even think there may be alternatives. Others are aware that Windows is not the only possibility, but they think they don’t need something different and don’t want to “waste their time” trying to configure their computer, since they have to waste it in some other ways: writing silly things on Facebook, watching stupid videos on YouTube etc. etc... :)

My only two “I-wish-it-was-better” in Ubuntu are, at present: an "easy" alternative to FileMaker Pro; a better print quality (drivers).

P&L

Ualpa

I understand your frustration, but let's take it down a notch. Before you start calling for help, you try to click on help for a program, (don't ask which, just pick one) a message pops up that says "help not available". Then you go to the internet to look for help. Most of the sites are "no longer available". Then you get on a forum and look through hundreds of problems and finally find one that is close to yours, and the guy says "heres the fix". Alright, you get a few instructions, all of which sound right so you do them. At the end after the guy has congradulated you for fixing your problem, he says,"before doing any of this you need to make sure you have XYZ installed". Of course I don't have XYZ installed. This has happened several times. After spending several hours of frustrating experences I cannot blame someone for saying "to hell with it". The help is out there, it is very hard to find it. I don't want to read hundreds of post describing a problem, I want one post describing the solution.

I think the poll should be named why ubuntu is not popular. Not why it's failing, because it's not.

terry@softreq.com said: I don't think Ubuntu is failing.

However I can think of TWO major improvements...

1) Make it easy to purchase proprietary drivers for video, audio, etc. (preferably purchase a CD for about $9.99 from Amazon).

2) Ubuntu should move to a browser based-operating system (similar to Chrome).

I suggest 2) because IMO that's where it's all going. so we Ubuntu users should try to get there first!

Thanks

1. purchasing drivers?? I think that would be a disadvantage
2. That would make things easier, yes, but you will get less authentication and root access.

Boy did you not get it. The reason it is unpopular is; because it is not working (failing). It is not a hardware, software problem it is a people problem. I and others ask for help and we are told how fortunate we are to have linux instead of windows. You claim to be better that windows! That is nothing to brag about, just about any thing is better than windows. I get tired of listening to people tell me how great linux is and if I criticize something you say "go back to Windoze". Just because it is better than Windows does not mean it is great, or even good. I am a Linux user and will remain one, but I will point out what I see as faults in the system, and if you don't like hearing about it then fix the problems, then you will have my praise.

It's ok to make comments about problems and ask for help. Everyone should feel welcome. Heavy negative toned comments about Ubuntu may be unfair though.

Linux is about taking personal responsibility for your OS, and if something doesn't work it's up to you to self code/ hire someone for a solution/change hardware/ or just wait for a remedy.

Whole different deal than using Windows which is an OS you are just renting. (See MS EULA)

Some people don't follow this. Nothing personal, but there are a lot of crybabies.