The Current Problem with Linux... imho

Hey, I was wondering if anyone shared this view. It's cool if you don't..

I was using Linux as usual the other day when it dawned on me that I don't actually feel safe using it. Nothing to do with security of my system. More to do with the software stability.

I firstly *have* to use Office 07 for my University which is a bit of a drag. I have that installed but I have issues with it. I never feel safe in using it. I'm aware that it isn't a native app so its always gonna have its issues.

I don't however feel any better about most of the other applications or drivers. Currently I'm having issues with ALSA, but webcam doesn't work, my applets in my panel keep shifting around, exaile keeps crashing and so does evolution mail.

It's also fairly difficult to do simple things with regards to customisation. The Simple Compiz editor needs to be integrated as default. A better name needs to be thought up aswell. Gnome needs to be updated. KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience. It's important that we keep things moving forward. There's no reason for the gnome philosophy needs to change, but there is always room for improvement.

in the future, buy boxes with linux preinstalled -- that addresses 80% of your concerns.

;)

I feel absolutely safe, secure and stable running lightweight (GTK+ only) apps on mature and branded hardware. Consider building boxes based (at least in part) off of official HCLs. I have learned to work around various quirks, seems as if workarounds are a necessary part of the workflow process.

davbren said: my applets in my panel keep shifting around

Loc_k_ to Panel

I do not understand what you mean about GNOME, well I understand GNOME but I dont know what the definition of GNOME moving forward is. You may consider contributing to the GNOME team if you have a better vision than what they currently have done for GNOME 3.

Now for something completely different... my nose hurts... it feels cold when I breath... I may be getting sick :( is there a nurse here?

I feel safer now than I did running Windows. When I used Windows, I was actually nervous about updating. I never knew what would happen, and half the time an update would make other stuff break.

davbren said: Hey, I was wondering if anyone shared this view. It's cool if you don't..

I was using Linux as usual the other day when it dawned on me that I don't actually feel safe using it. Nothing to do with security of my system. More to do with the software stability.

I firstly *have* to use Office 07 for my University which is a bit of a drag. I have that installed but I have issues with it. I never feel safe in using it. I'm aware that it isn't a native app so its always gonna have its issues.

I don't however feel any better about most of the other applications or drivers. Currently I'm having issues with ALSA, but webcam doesn't work, my applets in my panel keep shifting around, exaile keeps crashing and so does evolution mail.

It's also fairly difficult to do simple things with regards to customisation. The Simple Compiz editor needs to be integrated as default. A better name needs to be thought up aswell. Gnome needs to be updated. KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience. It's important that we keep things moving forward. There's no reason for the gnome philosophy needs to change, but there is always room for improvement.

The Compiz editor is integrated already, GNOME 3 is coming out soon and KDE 4 has set the standard for desktop instability at this point. I'm not sure what to say about Evolution or Exaile as I use neither (find alternatives?). As for your webcam and sound problems, this is why I would recommend you buy laptops with Linux preinstalled. And if a Uni requires Office 2007, you should probably talk to the IT department.

davbren said: Hey, I was wondering if anyone shared this view. It's cool if you don't..

I was using Linux as usual the other day when it dawned on me that I don't actually feel safe using it. Nothing to do with security of my system. More to do with the software stability.That's a pretty common concern. I'm not worried, because I can fix most problems, and I have nearly 750,000 Ubuntu Forum members to help me on the ones I can't fix. However, I do understand where you're coming from. It's all part of the adventure.

I firstly *have* to use Office 07 for my University which is a bit of a drag. I have that installed but I have issues with it. I never feel safe in using it. I'm aware that it isn't a native app so its always gonna have its issues.You can always file bug reports at appdb.winehq.org, they will be happy to accept detailed descriptions of your user experience. A lot of programs run just as well under WINE as they do natively. Also, keep in mind that Open Office 3 can read a few simple .docx files now (but can't export them, and support for advanced formatting is still a little shaky.) OO.o support for OOXML will improve over time, eventually you might not need Office 'O7.

I don't however feel any better about most of the other applications or drivers. Currently I'm having issues with ALSA,If you're loosing sound when you suspend or hibernate, you can get it back by running "sudo alsa force-reload." > my applets in my panel keep shifting aroundI've discovered that this problem is caused by changing screen resolutions. For example, when launching a game, if the game is set to a low resolution, that panel has to shrink to fit. That means shuffling the icons. It's bewildering that the GNOME project doesn't have a workaround for this, but you can remedy it by having fewer, smaller icons, or by running games at higher resolution. > It's also fairly difficult to do simple things with regards to customisation. The Simple Compiz editor needs to be integrated as default. A better name needs to be thought up aswell. Gnome needs to be updated. KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience. It's important that we keep things moving forward. There's no reason for the gnome philosophy needs to change, but there is always room for improvement.Of course there's room for improvement, and things are improving. Things are in fact way better than they used to be.

davbren said:

I don't however feel any better about most of the other applications or drivers. Currently I'm having issues with ALSA, but webcam doesn't work, my applets in my panel keep shifting around, exaile keeps crashing and so does evolution mail.

Exaile development is practically dead. Switch to Rhythmbox or Banshee.

Kingsley said: Exaile development is practically dead. Switch to Rhythmbox or Banshee.

What? NOO!! Exaile's not dying is it? Where did you pick that up from? They made another point release Monday before last and people are still commiting to the bzr repo. Has the project really died and no-ones told the developers that yet?

For a long time, I dual-booted Win-Vista and Ubuntu. I was afraid I would "need" Microsoft's proprietary (monopolistic would seem to be their ideal) practices. I recently deleted my Vista partition. I can make Ubuntu do things Windows never could. I don't worry about getting spywyare and viruses any more. I can leave Ubuntu running for weeks at a time with no degradation or slowdown. Sure, it took a lot of work and configuring to get my system working how I wanted it, but I was able to do it... myself (with help from this forum and millions of other Linux users). With Windows, I would have to find software (more than likely have to pay for it) just to "tweak" Windows to do things Microsoft couldn't be bothered with. You can surrender to the Microsoft extortion tactics. I never will again.

Kingsley said: Exaile development is practically dead. Switch to Rhythmbox or Banshee.

0.3.0a1 was released a couple weeks ago. Like many open source projects, programmers do it in their spare time. It's being developed still, don't worry.

davbren said:

It's also fairly difficult to do simple things with regards to customisation. The Simple Compiz editor needs to be integrated as default. A better name needs to be thought up aswell. Gnome needs to be updated. KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience. It's important that we keep things moving forward. There's no reason for the gnome philosophy needs to change, but there is always room for improvement. Does the name somehow affect your daily usage of the OS?

cardinals_fan said: Does the name somehow affect your daily usage of the OS?

Is the "G" in Gnome silent or not? Just sorting that out gives me a headache.

If you are really that worried about stability try Debian.

I find the stability of the Os fine. I just don't feel particularly safe using it for my work. I feel like every app is poised on a knife-edge between working perfectly and folding.

About the name change: No the name Compiz doesn't affect my use of the application. But it hardly describes what it does to the n00b user.

davbren said: I find the stability of the Os fine. I just don't feel particularly safe using it for my work. I feel like every app is poised on a knife-edge between working perfectly and folding.

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=stability stability: "the quality or attribute of being firm and steadfast"

If you're worried about your apps "folding", your system is unstable.

davbren said:

About the name change: No the name Compiz doesn't affect my use of the application. But it hardly describes what it does to the n00b user. Isn't the configuration for Compiz under "Desktop Effects" or some such name? Anyway, why are you so worried about the "n00b user"? You were clearly able to figure it out, so why does it matter?

here is why I feel confident with linux. I kept my computer on for 300 days. and there wer no breakdowns/slowdowns/begging me to stop doing **** until it increased the page file. It just ran. and ran. and ran until the holidays. when the power went down. When it came back up, all my applications relaunched, my open documents were recovered, all the webpages I was browsing reloaded. It was like nothing ever happened, and we could keep this downtime just between the two of us.

I'm not a n00b user. I followed Compiz from Compiz to Beryl to Compiz Fusion. My knowledge about these things was only gained through my own exploration of applications.

If something is within an OS it should be well placed and easily accessible to the users.

davbren said: I'm not a n00b user. I followed Compiz from Compiz to Beryl to Compiz Fusion. My knowledge about these things was only gained through my own exploration of applications.

If something is within an OS it should be well placed and easily accessible to the users. That was my point. Worry about whether you can use the system, not some unspecified other.

Why should it be more important whether *i* can use the system. I would like everyone to be able to use the system. That is what intuition is all about.

If the general public weren't considered, we would still be using command line....

davbren said: Why should it be more important whether *i* can use the system. I would like everyone to be able to use the system. That is what intuition is all about.

If the general public weren't considered, we would still be using command line.... I *am* still using the command line, for every task except web browsing and image editing/viewing ;)

You clearly don't want to use the CLI. That's totally okay. However, I fail to understand why it is your concern what other people use. If it works for you, use it and enjoy using it. Operating systems are tools, not religions.

A bit of a KDE perspective:

Its bleeding edge and in a continual flux. A bit of instability is inevitable in that situation. To me that is acceptable, not ideal but acceptable. The other thing that helps is that it feels like there is tangible improvement from one month to the next.

[Vista rant] The other thing about stability is that its not necessarily a matter of crash/not crash. My Vista OS recently decided it needs to scan through 50gigs of media while I'm busy using the box. And those 50gigs where no where near any of the locations that should be indexed.:confused: I ended up hard resetting the PC. That completely arbitrary background BS is almost as bad as a crashed app to me. My kubuntu box does what its told...without me having to disabled three dozen background/schedule things first. [/Vista rant]

cardinals_fan said: I *am* still using the command line, for every task except web browsing and image editing/viewing ;)

You clearly don't want to use the CLI. That's totally okay. However, I fail to understand why it is your concern what other people use. If it works for you, use it and enjoy using it. Operating systems are tools, not religions.

I'm not saying 'Get rid of CLI' It's very powerful and useful. The *vast* majority of computer users aren't going to want to use it. I've tried to make Ubuntu as accessible as possible to my friends, and some have started using it. they seem to find it difficult to use even though, to me, it's fairly simple. If you take Windows and Mac as examples, users find them comparitively easy to use. these friends of mine bought their pcs preinstalled with Linux. The installations weren't really complete. It was a clean install of Ubuntu and thats it. I'm aware that an OS is just a tool not a religion. Computers have become an essential part of our lives though. The regular computer user will want to get what they want done as quickly and as easily as possible.

More work needs to be done for the accessibility of the n00b user. The n00b user doesn't really know what they want, it is required for the experienced user to empathise and use that experience to tell them what they need.

I think its entirely possible to put together a proper package like iLife say. I'm not saying copy the idea. It's more about publicity, there needs to be more advertising for things like Gnome Office, and the standard Gnome applications like f-spot and rhythmbox. Once the standard package has been identified. The stability issues can be worked out.

My view on all this: Linux was never designed for the n00b user, and I doubt it ever will. It is something to learn, yes, but it is very powerful once you know your way around. I use the CLI the majority of the time, mainly because it is just easier to execute one command to edit a text file vs having to open Nautilus/Thunar/etc., navigate to the directory the file is in, then open it with a text editor. Linux does not aspire to be Windows, it aspires to be Linux. You have to take into account the fact that Linux has evolved from being a server OS to being used as a day-to-day OS. It takes time. Over application stability: I have never seen anything as stable as Linux, both in itself and with applications running on top. Over updated software: Ubuntu (or most any Debian branch) is not widly known for being extremely up to date. Every release, things get updated, so it does stay fairly current. Arch is what you want if you want extremely up to date software.

davbren said: I'm not saying 'Get rid of CLI' It's very powerful and useful. The *vast* majority of computer users aren't going to want to use it. I've tried to make Ubuntu as accessible as possible to my friends, and some have started using it. they seem to find it difficult to use even though, to me, it's fairly simple. If you take Windows and Mac as examples, users find them comparitively easy to use. these friends of mine bought their pcs preinstalled with Linux. The installations weren't really complete. It was a clean install of Ubuntu and thats it. I'm aware that an OS is just a tool not a religion. Computers have become an essential part of our lives though. The regular computer user will want to get what they want done as quickly and as easily as possible.

More work needs to be done for the accessibility of the n00b user. The n00b user doesn't really know what they want, it is required for the experienced user to empathise and use that experience to tell them what they need.

I think its entirely possible to put together a proper package like iLife say. I'm not saying copy the idea. It's more about publicity, there needs to be more advertising for things like Gnome Office, and the standard Gnome applications like f-spot and rhythmbox. Once the standard package has been identified. The stability issues can be worked out. I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that most people need to use the CLI - I believe the opposite! However, I just don't understand why you care. If you can use Ubuntu for what you want, why are you worried about "n00b users"? Why do your friends need to use it? Since the OS is, by your admission as well as mine, a tool, why can't everyone just use the tool that works best for them?

davbren said: If you take Windows and Mac as examples, users find them comparitively easy to use.

Unfortunately there's a big difference between intuitive and familiar, and it's quite common to get the two mixed up.

davbren said: these friends of mine bought their pcs preinstalled with Linux. The installations weren't really complete.

That's a shame, but I've heard this before. I think it was the EEPC had similar problems, pre-installed Linux but the manufactures/supplies made a hash job of it leaving the users to clean up the mess. Not much of a defence but I do have to wonder sometimes who they find to pre-configure these Linux system.

davbren said: More work needs to be done for the accessibility of the n00b user. The n00b user doesn't really know what they want, it is required for the experienced user to empathise and use that experience to tell them what they need.

Exactly, and the first step is to treat them with equal respect so perhaps drop the "n00b"? :)

The big problem is asking users what they want. Trust me it's really not as simple as it sounds. I mentioned before about the difference between intuition and familiarity and this comes into play when designing decent HCI guidelines. You almost have to try and put aside what people are familiar with to start with and almost start from scratch thinking about what they want to do. Of course once you've made a start on a system then you can think about the a users familiarity to that system and consider how that would apply to new concepts.

There was a good example of this last year with the Pidgin developers, they removed the ability to resize the text entry box in their messenger. A lot of people where angry with this decision and complained, but the developers asked a simple question that a lot of people found hard to answer. "Why do you want to be able to resize the text box?"

This is what it comes down to, when it comes to HCI you have to start by listen to what people want to do, not how they want to do it.

Sorry I seem to have gone off at a slight tangent. Anyway Ubuntu/Gnome are working towards greater usability with respect to the system as it stands. All we really ask in return is for new users to remember this is Linux, not Windows or OS X. Just because you are familiar with how you do something in Windows, does not actually make that process intuitive.

davbren said: If you take Windows and Mac as examples, users find them comparitively easy to use.

Um, If it is so easy, why does virtually every school (in the US anyway) public/private/K-12/collegiate/community college offer and often require coursework in basic computer skills? Why are there textbooks-and Video Professor DVDs on the topic?

Skripka said: Um, If it is so easy, why does virtually every school (in the US anyway) public/private/K-12/collegiate/community college offer and often require coursework in basic computer skills? Why are there textbooks-and Video Professor DVDs on the topic?

I believe that Linux is generally easy to use. That is, of course, coming from a computer scientist. I definitely don't mean copy Windows or OSX. Linux has its own identity and should keep it.

They ask for basic computer skills just to cover themselves.

I think that that to have the OS evolve we need to make it as accessible as possible. I thought that was the whole point. Ubuntu is a tool to do the exact same things as Windows or Mac. For the most part it does it very well. If we aren't trying to make ubuntu easier to use, what exactly are we doing?

davbren said: Hey, I was wondering if anyone shared this view. It's cool if you don't..

I was using Linux as usual the other day when it dawned on me that I don't actually feel safe using it. Nothing to do with security of my system. More to do with the software stability.

I firstly *have* to use Office 07 for my University which is a bit of a drag. I have that installed but I have issues with it. I never feel safe in using it. I'm aware that it isn't a native app so its always gonna have its issues.

I don't however feel any better about most of the other applications or drivers. Currently I'm having issues with ALSA, but webcam doesn't work, my applets in my panel keep shifting around, exaile keeps crashing and so does evolution mail.

It's also fairly difficult to do simple things with regards to customisation. The Simple Compiz editor needs to be integrated as default. A better name needs to be thought up aswell. Gnome needs to be updated. KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience. It's important that we keep things moving forward. There's no reason for the gnome philosophy needs to change, but there is always room for improvement.

I do have a seggestion, do you have a windows partition? Or do you use wubi? If you use wubi, there are countless issues with it, i seggest reading an article that helps with partitioning OR just install ubuntu period. Also office 2007 isn't really that great, if you have to use it, try openoffice it's preinstalled and can save to a doc format like office. Also as for compiz issues they might happen often if you installed the wrong driver, or have low ram, gnome is a great stable envirment, if you use KDE, try to use gnome more often, it's a lot more stable. If you have problems with ALSA then it's probibly wubi's fault, it constantly did that to me when i used wubi. What i suggest is unistalling ubuntu or kubuntu if you use KDE as default, again look into some partitioning guides, and install the rest from there, as for panels, above seggests locking them, and that should fix them, but if you have low file space wierd things may start to happen. It happened for me on 2 different computers. Evalution mail shouldn't crash unless you have low ram, it doesn't take up much ram as it is, but my guess is thats your problem, i really hope this helps, and i hope your ubuntu experience improves as well,

Best regards, Dragos240

Although like the work with a GUI,a CLI is still important for me.

In the 20 months i now use Kubuntu,i had a few problems with the CLI in the begining to understand how it's work.

So for me,Kubuntu is just the perfect distro to use,the only thing what is necessary is to learn understand the OS GNU/Linux or BSD.

davbren said: I believe that Linux is generally easy to use. That is, of course, coming from a computer scientist. I definitely don't mean copy Windows or OSX. Linux has its own identity and should keep it.

They ask for basic computer skills just to cover themselves.

I think that that to have the OS evolve we need to make it as accessible as possible. I thought that was the whole point. Ubuntu is a tool to do the exact same things as Windows or Mac. For the most part it does it very well. If we aren't trying to make ubuntu easier to use, what exactly are we doing?

You sidestep the issue. There's a difference between being trained to do something and something being "intuitive".

There is NOTHING intuitive about the key combination crtl+z. NOTHING. No one who hasn't used computers would know what it does, or guess. The same with crtl+v, the macro has nothing in common with the desired command. Yet these shortcuts and other more esoteric ones are standard fare on both *nix and Windows...and have been for some time.

Run an OEM install disc of XP sometime. That exercise is anything but intuitive.

If OSX is "intuitive", why can you go into a computer lab of Apple OSX machines, and virtually EVERY one of them has all the apps left open from prior users-but all app windows are closed and the desktop visible? Because most people using those machines don't know how to quit properly-according to the Apple GUI manual.

Kids learn from a young age to learn both Win and mac. This is what your confusing for "intuitiveness".

Linux is not Windows, and it is not Mac OSX. That prior sentence is why there are so many frustrated Linux n00bies posting in the Ubuntu Testemonials board-because the religious zeal of some users gave them large misperceptions about what Linux is and does. It is a kernel, yes and freeware, and the roots of many distros--but it is for teaching oneself more about *nix and computing. If (general) you don't want to learn more about computers (for whatever reason) then Linux is not a good idea. It just isn't. Sooner or later-one gets oneself in over their head trying to do something they don't understand-something breaks; and one either learns to help themselves and solve their problem or they go back to Windows/OSX in frustration. Sink or Swim.

I know many people who just want to use a computer and don't give a ______ about browser security, or OS security, or firewalls, or antivirus-they just want to use their computer...and when they trash things, they don't care why it happened, and don't care to learn how to keep it from happening-they just want their AIM/MSN/Facebook working....and don't want to have to learn one cent more than they have to. Lots of this type of person exist. NO amount of "intuitive" interface will change this.

If people don't want to openly learn more about computers-they have no business partitioning their HDD in the 1st place, a majority of lay computer users don't even know what "partitioning" is or does.

davbren said:

I firstly *have* to use Office 07 for my University which is a bit of a drag.

I would make a fuss about that. They should prescribe open standards and not certain software suites. Essentially they are forcing you to buy something you might not want.

davbren said: I believe that Linux is generally easy to use. That is, of course, coming from a computer scientist. I definitely don't mean copy Windows or OSX. Linux has its own identity and should keep it.

They ask for basic computer skills just to cover themselves.

I think that that to have the OS evolve we need to make it as accessible as possible. I thought that was the whole point. Ubuntu is a tool to do the exact same things as Windows or Mac. For the most part it does it very well. If we aren't trying to make ubuntu easier to use, what exactly are we doing?

Your heart is in the right place, but take a step back and consider what you are suggesting.

Windows and OSX are not in any way "intuitive". They are merely familiar. We have been surrounded by them for years, and they react the way we expect. Linux is unfamiliar, as it does things in very different ways at times. Had linux been the popular OS, you would likely find windows to be equally (and in the opinion of myself and many others here, far more) "unintuitive".

Take your argument about Compiz. The windows equivalent is Aero, which is equally vague about what it does. But no one is suggesting Aero change its name. The only reason you might assume Aero == composite desktop is due to Microsoft's marketing.

All this said, your points about some perceived flakiness are fair points. There are tons of random quirks with hardware with ALSA, wireless, webcams and certain key apps (yes, evolution is definitely one of them). Most of these issues would be solved if you bought your computer pre-installed from an OEM, so the comparison is not truly fair, but I think it is a fair point.

I love linux as much as anyone here, but this thread is a great example of linux users getting very defensive of a non-attacking post. The OP is clearly a fan of linux with concerns, and look how many people jumped down his/her throat. I think if we really look into what the OP has brought up, there are some legit points. Don't dismiss them so readily. For example, who cares if our problems are less than windows. That is the absolute worst response I have ever heard. Of course windows has problems. But we do too. The difference here SHOULD be that we can put our heads together and fix them. To completely ignore concerns because "it isn't as big an issue as windows has", is simply foolish.

EDIT: @OP... Be more specific with issues in the future. Many of your claims are very vague and sound like generalizations. If you know a new user (please, do not use "n00b", it is against forum policy actually), say that. If you simply are assuming that a new user would have issues, that is pure speculation, and not really relevant. Same with your other issues. The more examples you give, the more weight your assertions will hold.

davbren said: KDE 4.0 has set the standard for the new desktop experience.

i think that's where your problem is, i heard the 4.0 realise was next to useless! set yourself higher standards and your software will stop crashing.

lol, i'm so funny :D

Skripka said:

Run an OEM install disc of XP sometime. That exercise is anything but intuitive.

It is horribly presumptuous in that it completely wipes everything on the HD and takes it over for its self, but my Gateway OEM CD could almost certainly be operated by a chimpanzee.

cardinals_fan said: It is horribly presumptuous in that it completely wipes everything on the HD and takes it over for its self, but my Gateway OEM CD could almost certainly be operated by a chimpanzee.

When I say install I mean an install root-canal disc (system builder style), not a system re-imaging disc. Mwaahahahaaaa--you know that maniacal preview of the BSoD type installer, Mwahahahaaaa. I got your "intuitive". :)

Take your argument about Compiz. The windows equivalent is Aero, which is equally vague about what it does. But no one is suggesting Aero change its name. The only reason you might assume Aero == composite desktop is due to Microsoft's marketing.

Aero suggests air hence the transparency. Aqua suggests water, hence the water drop appearence. Compiz means absolutely nothing.

Also I wasn't aware that n00b was particularly derogatory. If you look at my posts I'm actually fighting their corner. It makes little sense to say that the OS is just a tool and I should be happy with it. The only way that the OS is ever going to progress is if the average Joe user starts to use it. That would mean better drivers from the manufacturers, better software for us. A better competitor to MS Office perhaps?

I don't buy that Linux is for a specific use. I use my Linux Laptop for surfing the web, emailing, word processing, watching podcasts, and programming. I don't see how that would be any different on Windows or Mac. I chose Linux because I knew it was available and I knew it would help my system run better. I prefer the layout to either Windows or Mac. I feel more stable doing my work on Windows than Linux though. As far as checking my emails and surfing is concerned the Linux environment is perfect. It feels great being in a virus free environment.

I don't understand why we should put up with instability in Linux and not put up with it in Windows. I feel that people accept it because it's expected.

There is NOTHING intuitive about the key combination crtl+z. NOTHING. No one who hasn't used computers would know what it does, or guess. The same with crtl+v, the macro has nothing in common with the desired command. Yet these shortcuts and other more esoteric ones are standard fare on both *nix and Windows...and have been for some time.

No these aren't intuitive. how you'd go about copy and paste without shortcuts, should be though. Microsoft have tried to address these issues with the ribbon. I only wish that the Linux community thought of it earlier.

I know many people who just want to use a computer and don't give a ______ about browser security, or OS security, or firewalls, or antivirus-they just want to use their computer

The reason people don't care is that they don't really know the implications of each of these things. If they didn't need to worry about them then they wouldn't *have* to care. I don't see how that's relevent to publicising Linux as something other than a geeks tool. But if people are going to market it to the general public then mroe needs to be done about the software stability. I know its difficult as the programmers often do things in their spare time.

Although like the work with a GUI,a CLI is still important for me.

I'm not saying get rid of CLI. Every OS has one. We just need to get things ready for new users...

is there a nurse here?

http://usera.ImageCave.com/stalkingwolf/220px-Bombay_sapphire_by_daxiang_stef.jpg

davbren said: Aero suggests air hence the transparency. Aqua suggests water, hence the water drop appearence. Compiz means absolutely nothing.

No. Aero suggests a minty chocolate bar which as far as I can has nothing to do with 3D desktop effects.

[[IMG]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3720/aeromintwrqd4.th.jpg[/IMG]](http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aeromintwrqd4.jpg)

Exactly, and the first step is to treat them with equal respect so perhaps drop the "n00b"?

I dont see any particular disrespect in the use of the term nOOb. In many respects, even though I have been using various Linux distros since RH8, I am still a nOOb. There are certain that I simply as yet have no interest. There are others that I am just gaining an interest like programming and security/hacking. Well you get the idea.

I think it was the EEPC had similar problems,

I have never had any issues with my eee 701. I will admit however that mine was not one of those that came with the Linux version. Mine came with the Japanese version of XP. With in 2 hours of receiving(I just had to play with the Japanese version) it I had 8.04 installed and the next day I installed the EEE version of 8.04. I had no problems doing anything I wanted to do with either version.

It is a kernel, yes and freeware, and the roots of many distros--but it is for teaching oneself more about *nix and computing

IF and only if that is what you want to do. I have installed Ubuntu for many people. Most just want what they want to do to work, My Wife included. She wants to turn her computer on, read her emails, send one occasionally, go to the sites she wants, look at pictures occasionally. Just the normal stuff. She does not care if she has a revolving cube on her desk top. She does not care if she has flames, or dancing men, or what ever. She want to do what she wants to do.

However she is jazzed when ever I learn a new trick with Ubuntu. Will she ever do it? Probably not. But she is jazzed that I can do it because, That Is what I do.

Her sister is the same. All she cares about is that she can get on line and go to her nascar and dating sites with out it freezing up. Her sister cannot even grasp the thought of just shutting down and restarting to get out of a freeze up.

Of course windows has problems. But we do too.

True, but, (there is always a but isn't there) In my case since I installed Ubuntu on My Wifes computer I have not heard anything like " I just opened my email and it froze" or I just went to this site and it won't do anything. that was 3.5 years ago. And now even she tells her sister, her neice, and others , " well ,if you would try Linux you would not have that problem. I havent had a virus in over 3 years.

average Joe user starts to use it.

Define > average Joe user. I dont think there is such an animal. Each and every one of Us chose to use this OS for different reasons. I use it because it does what I want. On my EEE it does somethings better than a fullsize laptop. My wife uses it because it does what she wants with out problems. The kids I have installed it for love the games, educational and otherwise. Each person that uses Ubuntu or any flavor of Linux does so for their own reasons. That is one of the core tenets of Linux. Choice.

I don't understand why we should put up with instability in Linux and not put up with it in Windows.

But you do put up with it in Windows. The freezing, lost work, things that just disappear into the ethernet, never to be seen again. But all this and more is just blown off as " just windows". It is accepted with the " well I guess I will just have to scratch my A**, rub my nose, and hop up and down on one foot" or what ever the requisite ceremony is for that particular application.

I on the other hand simply recite the magic words ( Synaptic Package manager), select the magic of the day. ( search, mark for install, apply) and " bobs your uncle" iM DONE.

Skripka said: The same with crtl+v, the macro has nothing in common with the desired command.

I always thought ctrl+x is used because X looks like an open pair of scissors, and ctrl+v, because V looks like a handwritten insert symbol (the upside down V that editors often use to add a new word in a sentence).

Hellow said: My view on all this:

Linux was never designed for the n00b user, and I doubt it ever will. It is something to learn, yes, but it is very powerful once you know your way around. I use the CLI the majority of the time, mainly because it is just easier to execute one command to edit a text file vs having to open Nautilus/Thunar/etc., navigate to the directory the file is in, then open it with a text editor. Linux does not aspire to be Windows, it aspires to be Linux. You have to take into account the fact that Linux has evolved from being a server OS to being used as a day-to-day OS. It takes time. Over application stability: I have never seen anything as stable as Linux, both in itself and with applications running on top. Over updated software: Ubuntu (or most any Debian branch) is not widly known for being extremely up to date. Every release, things get updated, so it does stay fairly current. Arch is what you want if you want extremely up to date software.

Actually Linux evolved as a desktop by Linus then was used as a server, and is not trying to be used by a desktop again by certain users. Linus was looking for a version of Unix to run on his i386 desktop but at the time Unix was too expensive for him to afford and the alternative was DOS which did not do but a fraction of what Unix could do on the same hardware.

I don't have those issues.

Apps never crash here *(well, it's been a long time since one did, not counting video editors :p)*.

billgoldberg said: I don't have those issues.

Apps never crash here *(well, it's been a long time since one did, not counting video editors :p)*.

Video editor isn't an app...? Is that through lack of RAM?:D

So... From the responses given, am I to assume, that the current Linux community doesn't want Ubuntu to be ready for the general public and should stay a, for lack of a better word, 'geeks OS'?

I'm a self confessed geek. I personally want my friends and family experience what I am experiencing. Is that a bad thing?

davbren said: I'm not saying 'Get rid of CLI' It's very powerful and useful. The *vast* majority of computer users aren't going to want to use it.

More work needs to be done for the accessibility of the n00b user. The n00b user doesn't really know what they want, it is required for the experienced user to empathise and use that experience to tell them what they need.

I think its entirely possible to put together a proper package like iLife say. I'm not saying copy the idea. It's more about publicity, there needs to be more advertising for things like Gnome Office, and the standard Gnome applications like f-spot and rhythmbox. Once the standard package has been identified. The stability issues can be worked out.

one word : PROGEX - this thing installed with every box and dice known to man. It was a fast, easy install and once I'd figured out how to reset the themes so the windows would behave normally, it was perfect. I had Progex - and most other Ubuntu based distros - up and running in less than an hour.

Re-installing windows took HOURS and I had to find the drivers at the HP website, burn them to disk and then copy them across. Service pack updates took forever. And I'm going to have to buy a security suite. Microsoft Messengers PLAYS ADVERTS for goodness sake and the thing STILL has a truckload of hardware driver conflicts that I have to figure out.

Linux is still flawed but you can't tell me that windows is better. Ever.

I couldn't run Fedora and SuSe due to problems with Alsa sound and wireless respectively. Some power and fan problems due to my specific laptop model, finally sorted those.

One of the things I hated about Fedora KDE was that it took me ten clicks to GET to the command line.

One of the BIG things we need to improve command line is to make sure the compilers etc are already installed, and that the editor is intuitive - the first time I tried to edit a file, I couldn't figure out how to 'save' it. And so many times I 've tried to compile or make and 'command not found' or whatever. THAT stuff needs to 'just work'.

The other thing is that a lot of the time when you google a problem, you find 'old' fixes that use CLI and often assume prior knowledge that you don't have. (For example: that you have to create a directory to mount your raid array to)

A lot of the time, the latest distros with package manager and so on enable you to do all that stuff right from your desktop, taking care of dependencies and everything.

There are two reasons I ended up going back to windows on this machine: One, there are several programs my son wants to play that will only run in windows (could have gone wine, I know) and two, that I NEED decent Webcam, and I can't get decent results with Linux. When I buggered up my wireless by uninstalling a webcam driver, I had a dummy spit and went back to windows. But I wish I hadn't.

I'm buying myself a new linux-friendly laptop. I don't try to run Windows on my Mac, after all.

davbren said: So... From the responses given, am I to assume, that the current Linux community doesn't want Ubuntu to be ready for the general public and should stay a, for lack of a better word, 'geeks OS'?

I'm a self confessed geek. I personally want my friends and family experience what I am experiencing. Is that a bad thing?

Recently a friend of mine (WHO HAS AN IT CERTIFICATE) couldn't connect to her wireless internet, and another found that they had to turn off their router and turn it on at 'just the right moment' in order to connect. They were also having explorer.exe hang at shutdown. (even after SP3). Just a small selection of windows problems that I was able to fix and I just make it up as I go with a bit of help from google. Last time I ditched windows it was because the altiris backup software was doing a bizarre loop that google couldn't help with.

IMHO if you get a CORRECTLY installed and configured system on COMPATIBLE hardware from the get-go, your Linux experience should be pretty much trouble free, or no more troubled than with windows.

Skripka said: When I say install I mean an install root-canal disc (system builder style), not a system re-imaging disc. Mwaahahahaaaa--you know that maniacal preview of the BSoD type installer, Mwahahahaaaa. I got your "intuitive". :)

I install OEM Vista routinely. As was mentioned, a chimp could probably do it.

Why would you think this is so difficult?

davbren said: So... From the responses given, am I to assume, that the current Linux community doesn't want Ubuntu to be ready for the general public and should stay a, for lack of a better word, 'geeks OS'?

I'm a self confessed geek. I personally want my friends and family experience what I am experiencing. Is that a bad thing? I want my friends and family to use whatever works for them, and in return let me use what works for me. Is that a bad thing?

tsali said: I install OEM Vista routinely.I hope you mean this as "I work for a company that requires this (like a computer build shop or a large IT department)". If not, and you are meaning this for your own computer, I would begin questioning why anyone should have to reinstall an OS "routinely"...

I hope you mean this as "I work for a company that requires this (like a computer build shop or a large IT department)". If not, and you are meaning this for your own computer, I would begin questioning why anyone should have to reinstall an OS "routinely"...

I didn't say "reinstall". I said "install"...and it's because I AM a custom builder. My volume is too low these days to screw around with imaging hard disks. I just pop the DVD in, start the install and come back in an hour. All done.

I offered 90 day free phone and email support. I used to offer Ubuntu as an OS, but my support issues related to it were quadruple that of the Windows boxes, so I dropped it. Customers CAN spec a no OS box, but they get no support from me other than that associated with hardware warranties.

cardinals_fan said: I want my friends and family to use whatever works for them, and in return let me use what works for me. Is that a bad thing?

No, I do the same thing. :)