Desktop Ubuntu - Problem after Problem after Problem

Linux has done a stellar job for servers worldwide. But, I submit, it has done a less than satisfactory job for desktop pcs. I have no idea why that is and I know that there are thousands of diehard one-eyed linux geeks out there who will defend desktop linux to the death and who will mock and criticize Microsoft and possibly Apple for any number of valid (and invalid) reasons. But let's leave the bigots to talk to themselves and try to find out why so many linux desktop users have so much difficulty.

And they *do* have a lot of difficulty. Just looking at the Ubuntu forum posts statistics tonight I'm told that there have been 6,626,897 posts! The vast majority of posts begin with a problem and even if we assume (conservatively) that maybe only 800,000 of the posts initially report a problem with which a user needs help, that surely is a huge problem (and should be a real concern to developers) in and of itself.

Although the reported problems are many and various, there are loads about wireless, mounting disks, audio this that and the other problem, screen resolution this that and the other problem, dual and triple booting, virtualization, installation, drivers, printing, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Anybody who takes any sensible interest in the forum questions knows that there are serious problems with the current Ubuntu (and presumably linux in general) distributions which are being struggled with by ordinary (and even quite clever) mortals.

But strangely (to me at least), the Ubuntu developers continue to trundle out one distribution after another - dapper, edgy, feisty, hardy, gutsy, intrepid each with its different and unique fixes but with associated new problems for struggling users. This clearly delights the geeks but seriously disturbs many ordinary users who just want to have a stable pc which works pretty well out of the box

Like it or not MS Windows and XP in particular have been very, very successful because users could depend on their pc to function more or less as expected for years on end with relatively easy interaction between the user and their pc.

So what's to be done? I don't really know but Windows 7 looks as though it may entice many struggling linux users back to MS. Some may be put off by the cost and/or philosophical reasons, but others will certainly switch back.

On the whole I think the overall linux pc problem is users' frustration with ongoing problem after problem after problem in one distribution after another after another. No doubt may will disagree.... but I think that the developers really do need to take notice and refocus their energies.

You have to take into account the thread count, not the post count.

There might be 50 threads with one or two posts, but one thread might have a few thousand posts.

There are only 1,024,978 threads. Which makes the numbers much lower. And looking at the counts by forum, about half aren't even in the support categories at all.

So half being roughly 500,000. and your initial number was about an eighth being support requests, which gives us 125,000. You can probably figure another 5% to 10% are duplicates, it happens all the time. So that gives us about 119,000.

Still nothing close to zero, but the numbers are much better looking than your initial statement. I see what you're saying, but at the same time, those windows computers came pre-installed 99% of the time. So the hardware was made to run perfectly. It makes a big difference that way.

I'm not trying to start a war, just a few things to think about.

I wonder how many poeple called there computer manufacturer for windows support today? Zero? Hmmmm... Probably more than Zero. I guess Windows just isn't ready for the desktop yet.

I have to agree with some points there. I'm a Windows XP user because of the stability and bug-free experience. I've encountered over 9000 bugs in Ubuntu and extremely few in Windows (or none that I can remember right now). It feels like quality control of some applications in Ubuntu is non-existant. Mainly the third-party open source ones that a user who wants to do more than just chat, write and browse need to use. In Ubuntu updates have broken my system, in Windows it hasn't happened yet.

i have been using ubuntu for about 2 years now.. and am using it because it works for me. its not perfect. but i find it easier to solve the few problems that comes along easily. overall i have a very stable system. I still remembered the hellish experience that was XP. every week something seem to come up.. if its not a vrius. it would be BSOD. in the end use what works for you. many of the post you refer to are more of questions than bugs. how do i do this... i can i partition my drive.. once you get a hang of this things you wont have a problem anymore.

Ziggy72 said:

And they *do* have a lot of difficulty. Just looking at the Ubuntu forum posts statistics tonight I'm told that there have been 6,626,897 posts! The vast majority of posts begin with a problem and even if we assume (conservatively) that maybe only 800,000 of the posts initially report a problem with which a user needs help, that surely is a huge problem (and should be a real concern to developers) in and of itself.

And how many of these hundreds of thousands of problem posts come in the form of:

What is a terminal

How do I become root?

All of which and much, so very much more are covered in wikis, how-tos, thousands of previous posts.

The problem with GNU/Linux isn't GNU/Linux, it's people's aversion to change and their inability to comprehend that Google really is their friend.

Like it or not MS Windows and XP in particular have been very, very successful because users could depend on their pc to function more or less as expected for years on end with relatively easy interaction between the user and their pc. As someone who used to troubleshoot *a lot* a couple of years ago, I call bull on this one.

In my expereince, the only way to stop problems - whether it be on the OSS desktop or Windows, it to take a vast amount of control and power out of user's hands.

Problem here is modern PCs are Swiss Army knives and people have a certain expectation when it comes to functionality and flexibility. You *can't* do that to users, therefore you've got to deal with the consequences of huge code bases, support for lots of hardware components, lots of esoteric and possibly conflicting applications and the inevitable conclusion that you can't code or test for every possible usage scenario (which includes *many* scenarios where the *user* does something *stupid*, bringing it upon *themselves*).

That said, desktop linux certainly does have *some* failings that needn't necessarily be there. The most obvious of which is the graphical stack: the history of X11 development is messy, the hardware documentation often just isn't there and auto-detection is only as solid as the hardware industry is entirely standardised. To compound that, by the very nature of the level at which these issues occur (and somewhat by the non-end-user design of X), fixing these issues is non-trivial.

Windows would suffer these issues in similar proportions, were MS not at the top of the food chain and the de-facto choice for manufacturer support. Apple would also be in a similar situation, were they to change their business model and relinquish their dictatorship-tight grip on what hardware their OS is allowed to run on.

Linux is unfortunate enough to be both a generic platform and an obscure one, swimming in a much larger pool than Apple (or even MS, since Windows is pretty much only for x86[_64]) and without the majority of floatation devices, which come with being important on the desktop.

That's not to say many of *nix's contributors couldn't be doing *more* but it's not really anyone's place to tell them what to do, since most aren't getting paid for their efforts.

Ziggy72 said:

And they *do* have a lot of difficulty. Just looking at the Ubuntu forum posts statistics tonight I'm told that there have been 6,626,897 posts! The vast majority of posts begin with a problem and even if we assume (conservatively) that maybe only 800,000 of the posts initially report a problem with which a user needs help, that surely is a huge problem (and should be a real concern to developers) in and of itself.

That is not proof of anything! Many posts are questions (How do I ..? What is the best ..? Where can I find ..?) , not problems. The vast majority of those questions have good answers.

But strangely (to me at least), the Ubuntu developers continue to trundle out one distribution after another - dapper, edgy, feisty, hardy, gutsy, intrepid each with its different and unique fixes but with associated new problems for struggling users. This clearly delights the geeks but seriously disturbs many ordinary users who just want to have a stable pc which works pretty well out of the box

What a load of total crap!

• dapper,edgy,hardy, etc are not distributions, they're releases of the same distribution.
• Why would ordinary users be disturbed (seriously disturbed according to you) by new releases? They don't need to install them all - just use one that works.
• Why do you blame the developers in your rant? What do you suggest they do? And don't say 'refocus' or 'rethink' as that's just meaningless - refocus on what exactly? But my real question is WHY? What is wrong? What is the problem?

Like it or not MS Windows and XP in particular have been very, very successful because users could depend on their pc to function more or less as expected for years on end with relatively easy interaction between the user and their pc.

Total lies. Incorrect statement without any proof whatsoever.

Your post is most likely tongue-in-cheek to stir up the opposite reaction (I really hope so), but for a lot of people it will either prevent them from adopting Linux or make them think about switching back to Windows simply because the Windows key on their keyboard doesn't work.

JohnFH said: That is not proof of anything! Many posts are questions (How do I ..? What is the best ..? Where can I find ..?) , not problems. The vast majority of those questions have good answers.

What a load of total crap! ... ... And don't say 'refocus' or 'rethink' as that's just meaningless - refocus on what exactly? But my real question is WHY? What is wrong? What is the problem?

... Total lies. Incorrect statement without any proof whatsoever.

Your post is most likely tongue-in-cheek to stir up the opposite reaction (I really hope so), but for a lot of people it will either prevent them from adopting Linux or make them think about switching back to Windows simply because the Windows key on their keyboard doesn't work.

I disagree. I believe YOUR post is much more likely to discourage people from using linux.

lswb said: I disagree. I believe YOUR post is much more likely to discourage people from using linux.Debunking bogus claims will stop people from using *nix? Or are you making some vague (and tired) insinuation of, "Linux Elitism"?

:popcorn:

etnlIcarus said: Debunking bogus claims will stop people from using *nix? Or are you making some vague (and tired) insinuation of, "Linux Elitism"?

Debunking bogus claims is good.

Responding to the OP valid concerns (even if expressed using incorrect terminology or questionable statistical methods) with phrases like "What a load of total crap!" and discounting of real problems is what I was talking about.

To be completely fair, there was a lot of crap.

Ziggy72 said: Linux has done a stellar job for servers worldwide. But, I submit, it has done a less than satisfactory job for desktop pcs. I have no idea why that is and I know that there are thousands of diehard one-eyed linux geeks out there who will defend desktop linux to the death and who will mock and criticize Microsoft and possibly Apple for any number of valid (and invalid) reasons. But let's leave the bigots to talk to themselves and try to find out why so many linux desktop users have so much difficulty.

And they *do* have a lot of difficulty. Just looking at the Ubuntu forum posts statistics tonight I'm told that there have been 6,626,897 posts! The vast majority of posts begin with a problem and even if we assume (conservatively) that maybe only 800,000 of the posts initially report a problem with which a user needs help, that surely is a huge problem (and should be a real concern to developers) in and of itself.

Measuring threads to measure problems is as unscientific and stupid as measuring # of viruses to assume security of platform.

#1, not everyone mentions their problem. Windows users tend to take it on with a local geek, and nonetheless, Neowin is still filled with problem reports. #2, what do we compare it to? This is the official Ubuntu forum. There is no major, well-known, high-profile official Microsoft Windows forums. #3, users report problems with common software in here too. On windows, if they did that, they'd be redirected to the appropiate software vendor's forums. Here, because Ubuntu packages all the software, they support it as well. #4, we're ignoring mailing lists, newsgroups and IRC. On all platforms. Traditionally Microsort has had their own usenet provider where problems are discussed. Ubuntu lacks this. #5, not all threads discuss problems. This forum discusses many things. #6, What is the severity of problem, what is the experience of user, was user satisfied? Good questions. None answered by this metric. #7, Was the problem with software in "universe" or "multiverse" repos? This does not compose an official part of supported ubuntu. And, except for some important software like gstreamer-codecs-ugly and gnash-plugin-mozilla, ought not to be covered in this stastic IMHO. #8, Was the problem with Arch, Debian, Fedora, Ultimate Edition, etc.? Was it in Other OS Talk? Obviously not relevant.

Although the reported problems are many and various, there are loads about wireless, mounting disks, audio this that and the other problem, screen resolution this that and the other problem, dual and triple booting, virtualization, installation, drivers, printing, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Anybody who takes any sensible interest in the forum questions knows that there are serious problems with the current Ubuntu (and presumably linux in general) distributions which are being struggled with by ordinary (and even quite clever) mortals.

Installation: Problems with installation are rare. Problems with finding codecs etc. after installation are common. ubuntu-restricted-extras solves most of these problems. Install Ubuntu-restricted-extras to solve most codec, flash player, etc. problems. Those that can't be solved by doing that, can't be solved by Canonical because these programs are propietary and/or poorly licensed. Fluendo is working on high quality codecs, gstreamer is highly maintaining plugins-ugly, and Gnash is the FSF's attempt to make a flash replacement. So work is being done, but reverse-engineering is common and often required. Printing: Most printers adhere to the GDI spec from MS and are dirt-poor cross-platform. This is the manufacture's fault for being cheap. HP and some Epson printers are better, as are most HP lasers, and are much more likely to work well cross-platform, and I see a lot of problem reports with canon, lexmark printers. But few with Epson, HP, Brother. Screen resolution: This is a problem. Drivers: Linux supports more hardware than any other OS. On any platform, at any price. Linux however, is limited to good support for "open" hardware. Vendors are converting to open hardware and nearly all open hardware is supported well. Closed hardware is often supported well too. Most broadcom chips, for instance, and many NVIDIA cards, despite being closed hardware, work well in linux. Note that most problems can not be fixed without cooperation of HW vendors and/or software vendors. In the meantime, they work remarkably well for unsupported solutions.

But strangely (to me at least), the Ubuntu developers continue to trundle out one distribution after another - dapper, edgy, feisty, hardy, gutsy, intrepid each with its different and unique fixes but with associated new problems for struggling users. This clearly delights the geeks but seriously disturbs many ordinary users who just want to have a stable pc which works pretty well out of the box

I highly doubt that. Most PC users, really want the latest and greatest. Having a stable PC is entirely possible, Debian is one way to go if a little harder to use. But it works less well because it's not the latest, tho it rarely crashes, hangs or freezes, and rarely has severe maintenance problems.> Like it or not MS Windows and XP in particular have been very, very successful because users could depend on their pc to function more or less as expected for years on end with relatively easy interaction between the user and their pc.

So what's to be done? I don't really know but Windows 7 looks as though it may entice many struggling linux users back to MS. Some may be put off by the cost and/or philosophical reasons, but others will certainly switch back.

Sure, some will switch back. But Linux isn't going to die. When XP was released when Linux was just 7 years old or so, Linux preserved. XP was a good release, but Linux users were determined for freedom and the UNIX way. 7 will not kill linux. And Windows 7 is a polish job for vista, and may be stable, but it's UI is very unfamiliar to XP users. Windows 7's UI is not XP-like at all and is very different. You also say XP is reliable. Funny, I found XP minimalist and light, but not at all reliable. The lack of proper sudo support and bundling of IE 6 led to many problems. WinVista I had better luck with, due to IE 7, UAC, and enhanced security and reliability throughout. (at least with SP1). Nevertheless, WinVista remains insecure, common target, inflexible, propietary, limited, and DRM-laden. It's not my idea of a good OS.> On the whole I think the overall linux pc problem is users' frustration with ongoing problem after problem after problem in one distribution after another after another. No doubt may will disagree.... but I think that the developers really do need to take notice and refocus their energies. Refocus their energies where? To support commercial SW/closed HW that the developers are actively blocking them from supporting? Unlikely. Instead, Linux must ensure that HW companies provide linux drivers and SW companies open up their standards for reimplementation on linux.

I'm a bit dubious about getting involved in threads like this, can easily end in tears. Plus I don't get into the whole "This OS is better than that OS" (Stuffed if I can even work out what criteria you could use to define "better"). Figured I would post though, just to share some of my experiences as latecomer to computers and a very recent convert to Linux. I'm certainly not going to preach about what OS one should use, whether freeware is better/worse etc, couldn't care less what people choose to use themselves and don't have any desire to "convert" anyone to using anything. Happy and secure in the knowledge the Ubuntu suits me, that there's a community aspect as well. I use Ubuntu 'coz I want to, what runs on someone elses box is of no importance to me. I come to Linux, Ubuntu and this 'ere forum 'coz I want to and I get the oppportunity to learn from others like (and unlike) myself, hopefully even learn enough that I can also offer possible solutions to others (one day LOL).

I am only relatively new to computers, my age meant I missed out by one year on the chance to learn about them at school (I finished in 1982, same year my school got their first one (and I mean one). I didn't have or see a need to learn about them until in recent years. I bought my first 'puter only four years ago, a refurbished Compaq Evo N1000c running MS 2000, and taught myself to use it on my own (by reading stuff on 'net,asking friends etc). Was happy with that set-up and blissfully unaware of such issues as EULAs, GPLs etc., and hadn't even heard of Linux in those early days.

I decided I'd upgrade to XP a couple of years back, as there were quite a few apps I couldn't run on 2000. I bought a copy of XP Home and installed it on laptop and all was well again. Then this time last year my poor old laptop decided I'd dished out all the punishment it could take and died on me. I was a bit hard up for cash at the time and a week away from starting an online uni degree, so I bought a cheapish OEM box 'coz the price was too good to refuse (box with XP Home was retailing for $1,100 Aussie Dollars, I got it for $750 with XP Pro installed, soon found out why it was so cheap when company went into liquidation a few weeks after I got it ). I had issues from day one with this machine and some software, I installed a copy of Office 2007 Student Edition, three days later I lost all colour from the ribbon, turned a horrid shade of beige/khaki) Uninstalled, reinstalled, restored 'puter to earlier time, asked heaps of questions of a lot of people on how to fix it, then gave up 'coz it still worked even 'though it looked shocking (I needed it for practical reasons, not aesthetics). To this day I have no idea on what occured, never will find out now.

I also do a fair bit of photograph and image manipulation, so last year I decided to take up Adobe's offer of a trial of Photoshop. This was the single worst move I've made on a 'puter, coz when trial ended I had massive amounts of trouble removing all traces of it (not knocking the product as it is certainly pretty solid, but the uninstall at end of period is nothing short of disgraceful, I read closely beforehand about the trial and what would be installed, but still ended up with a heap of other crap I didn't want to try, nor had I asked for, and if it was made more clear to me in first place I doubt I would have downloaded. Christmas Eve just past I decided to do a fresh install with the OEM to get rid of all this crud, yet once I had it installed and updated to service pack 3, I had problems with three of my most used apps playing up, one just refused to do anything. Trying to search the MS site for a solution is chasing many needles through an immense haystack, and about as fruitful. Now this bit isn't aimed at Windows, it's the OEM who's to blame for this I think, so much crapware came pre-installed alongside Windows. I ended up getting totally frustrated and annoyed with it that I figured I'd try using the old XP Home disk I'd purchased earlier on new machine and to hell with MS and their Genuine Advantage (was able to validate it without drama anyhow, so not sure what that was about, as I know the copy I had only let me install on one box and make one copy of disk for back-up). Reformatted HDD and installed Home, got my apps in and they seemed to be working okay, so downloaded service pack three and updates yet again (on my plan that was a lot of wasted download quota, and remember, I still haven't got AV and firewall back in and updated). Sod this I figured, I'll burn an ISO of Linux and see what that has to offer, hmmm this Ubuntu thing sound like it may be worth a look, Linux for humans after all. December 26 last year I put the live CD into drive for first ever time. A five minute look around and quick play had me convinced this was what I was after, so did a dual install there and then. I played with Ubuntu for three or four days and was convinced it was what I wanted as I had all my basic apps working. Still had XP to consider though, would I go through the hassle and wasted$$$ on the updates, service pack, AV etc, or would I scrap it all together? Well, you can see which OS won out in the end, and what a liberating experience it's been. My system running apps I want to run, with updates available as needed, but not installed until I choose to (yes, I realise you can switch off auto update in Windows, but then run a risk of working on an insecure system if you forget to update).

Now I won't get carried away, there have been a couple of issues with Ubuntu not playing nicely as well. The big difference I find however, is there is heaps of very solid, sound info on many of these problems if you spend a bit of time (up to user to decide if they want to invest that time) there a literally thousands of Linux users only too willing to share their thoughts, ideas and knowledge, often hard to find that sort of info for proprietry software, unless it's one of the major ones.

Much of my Linux trouble is my own lack of knowledge too, it's not so much that apps dont work, just that I don't know how to make them work as yet. This is where we get to the liberated feeling I spoke of earlier, I can now see the choices I have. I can choose to stick with Ubuntu and learn lots more about it so I can do much more, or I can happily keep it and use what I know already without learning much more (I've got all the basics pretty well sorted). I can decide Ubuntu isn't really what I want, and go to another distro, learn programming and build my own or even go back to MS, it really doesn't matter, the point is I now see I have far more options than I had just five weeks ago.

I think back to my first few days of using that ol' Compaq and Windows 2000 and not even knowing what cut and paste was, let alone how you actually do it. It was a little hard, a little unfamilar, a pretty fair learning curve to go through. I wonder what would have happened back then had I decided it was all too hard? I guess back then I would have just given up on learning at all, spend more time on the golf course or something. Getting into Ubuntu is similar to the experiences I had back then, but now if I figure Linux isn't really for me, at least I have options, choices and freedom.

Freedom is what it's about for me, free to choose whatever OS I like, free to use Freeware and Open Source, free to use proprietry apps if they suit my needs, free to use Windows if I choose. Free to make up my own mind.

Cant seem to find your statistics for reported XP and Vista bugs, issues, support forums etc. Can you put these in for a valid comparision please?

@Lunx Cool that you taught yourself to use both Windows and Linux. :)

My switch to Linux was a bit hard, because I have been using Windows since 3.0 came out, and DOS before that. I am still a bit set in the "old" ways. But I like the openness and freedom of Linux.

For about a year now, I have had to do absolutely no maintenance on my system, which would have been unthinkable with Windows.

Hope your experience with Ubuntu will continue to be good.

Heh, I never get tired of all the newbies attacking and defending Linux.

Glad to be of service. :lolflag:

Just use what works best..thats that. i personally only had to fix a few driver issue's and thats it. Ubuntu works perfectly well for me. And doesn't freeze up near as often.