VLC, Wine (possibly other apps) as standard?

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, i've been here way too long, and i think they keep changing the format just to keep the oldtimers on their toes.. (please move this if its the wrong forum, mods)

Anyway, i was recently looking at other distros, and comparing them against Ubuntu (i'm still with Ubuntu, don't worry :P), i noticed that i was more drawn to distros that featured my desired apps as standard.

For this reason, i very nearly went with PCOS (the new one, not PCLinuxOS), because it had VLC, Wine and emacs.

Obviously i can just get everything i need from synaptic, but having them as standard just makes it that little bit friendlier, especially something i constantly use like VLC.

I know there are issues because of the codecs, but i think at least the devs need to have a look at whether they are giving the community what they want in terms of installed packages. Is there some kind of voting system where we can get packages added to the mainstream install?

also please can we get at least one 3d game in the standard install just to make sure the 3d card is working properly? i recommend Oolite (awesome game) or Armagetron if Oolites too big.

If Ubuntu added VLC, they would have to screen IPs from countries which don't allow it (like the U.S.) so that they weren't breaking the law there.

Wine should not be included, as it makes us look like a Windows clone. People should try the Linux alternatives before reverting back to using program X in Wine, which may or may not work.

3D games take too much space. Ubuntu is already strapped for space, doing this would only worsen it.

And no Emacs. I don't even think Vi(m) should be included in the install, as power users can just install them, and if a noob needs to edit something outside of X, nano is way easier for them.

smartboyathome said: If Ubuntu added VLC, they would have to screen IPs from countries which don't allow it (like the U.S.) so that they weren't breaking the law there.

Wine should not be included, as it makes us look like a Windows clone. People should try the Linux alternatives before reverting back to using program X in Wine, which may or may not work.

3D games take too much space. Ubuntu is already strapped for space, doing this would only worsen it.

And no Emacs. I don't even think Vi(m) should be included in the install, as power users can just install them, and if a noob needs to edit something outside of X, nano is way easier for them.

i dont buy your arguments about 3d games taking up too much space. Armagetron is only ~1.7mb. I think many people would rather have something like Armagetron than the standard games which proably take up more but never get played! Its pointless having them in there.

Also, what if program X has no better alternative? (utorrent, dreamweaver to name two) Again, your argument about looking like a Windows clone is not sound. Ubuntu should give the users what they need to get their work done, whatever makes life easier. And most programs will work in the current dev version of Wine.

Brinstar said: i dont buy your arguments about 3d games taking up too much space. Armagetron is only ~1.7mb. I think many people would rather have something like Armagetron than the standard games which proably take up more but never get played! Its pointless having them in there.

Also, what if program X has no better alternative? (utorrent, dreamweaver to name two) Again, your argument about looking like a Windows clone is not sound. Ubuntu should give the users what they need to get their work done, whatever makes life easier. And most programs will work in the current dev version of Wine.

Hi! No better alternative to utorrent? :o I am using deluge on both Windows and Ubuntu, and find it lightyears better.

You may also want to know that the BitTorrent company, who now cooperates with various anti-piracy groups, teamed up with the uTorrent client...

I agree about including a fancy game or two. My first linux distro was an early mepis which had a bunch of games. Not what I was interested in but I found them whilst playing around with my new system and it certainly impressed me with what linux was capable of. Kubuntu doesn't even include any kde games which is just nuts to me.

Brinstar said: i dont buy your arguments about 3d games taking up too much space. Armagetron is only ~1.7mb. I think many people would rather have something like Armagetron than the standard games which proably take up more but never get played! Its pointless having them in there.

I actually played Same GNOME and Robots while waiting for Ubuntu to install, and when I had a little free time. They are nice puzzles. :)

Brinstar said: Also, what if program X has no better alternative? (utorrent, dreamweaver to name two)

Again, your argument about looking like a Windows clone is not sound. Ubuntu should give the users what they need to get their work done, whatever makes life easier. And most programs will work in the current dev version of Wine.

No viable replacement for you, but one for me. Transmission works great for me. Also, I don't use Dreamweaver (my school is teaching me web design using Kompozer, which has a native Linux version :D), so I don't need Wine.

If we gave the users Wine, though, how many users would complain that program X doesn't work well with Ubuntu? Probably many. Many more users would also not even use the open source alternatives, falling back to their apps which they are used to, which defeats the purpose of Ubuntu (to provide an alternative rather than a "supplement", so to speak).

In addition, many, many programs DON'T work with Wine, and while lightyears better than even a year before, it still has a long way to go to be able to use the majority of Windows programs.

smartboyathome said: I actually played Same GNOME and Robots while waiting for Ubuntu to install, and when I had a little free time. They are nice puzzles. :)

No viable replacement for you, but one for me. Transmission works great for me. Also, I don't use Dreamweaver (my school is teaching me web design using Kompozer, which has a native Linux version :D), so I don't need Wine.

If we gave the users Wine, though, how many users would complain that program X doesn't work well with Ubuntu? Probably many. Many more users would also not even use the open source alternatives, falling back to their apps which they are used to, which defeats the purpose of Ubuntu (to provide an alternative rather than a "supplement", so to speak).

In addition, many, many programs DON'T work with Wine, and while lightyears better than even a year before, it still has a long way to go to be able to use the majority of Windows programs.

great thinking, so because you don't need it, means no one else ever will, of course, how could i suggest such a foolish thing?

of course all those gamers out there with windows-only games should just stop playing windows-only games, and wait until game companies wise up and start producing linux games! what an awesome idea! until then, i'm sure they can just settle for the great open-source alternatives!

wine does a good enough job, which is what matters for the time being. yes there may come a time when linux/ubuntu can do everything, unfortunately that time is not 2009 (or even 2010 for that matter), so lets start being realistic and admit the wine project is fulfilling a *present* major need of the community (and doing a pretty good job at it).

Brinstar said: great thinking, so because you don't need it, means no one else ever will, of course, how could i suggest such a foolish thing?

of course all those gamers out there with windows-only games should just stop playing windows-only games, and wait until game companies wise up and start producing linux games! what an awesome idea! until then, i'm sure they can just settle for the great open-source alternatives!

wine does a good enough job, which is what matters for the time being. yes there may come a time when linux/ubuntu can do everything, unfortunately that time is not 2009 (or even 2010 for that matter), so lets start being realistic and admit the wine project is fulfilling a *present* major need of the community (and doing a pretty good job at it).

Perhaps giving an option to install wine when someone try to open an exe-file would be a good compromise?

What Ubuntu really needs is a DVD install option like Fedora and others.

Simian Man said: What Ubuntu really needs is a DVD install option like Fedora and others.

it surely does.

Brinstar said: great thinking, so because you don't need it, means no one else ever will, of course, how could i suggest such a foolish thing?

I never said that because *I* didn't use it, no one would. I'm just stating my opinion, that I think that most users should try the open source alternatives before using Wine to emulate their favorite program.

Brinstar said: of course all those gamers out there with windows-only games should just stop playing windows-only games, and wait until game companies wise up and start producing linux games! what an awesome idea! until then, i'm sure they can just settle for the great open-source alternatives!

Gamers probably wouldn't move to Linux anyway. Most just keep Windows anyway for games (I do, as most games don't run nearly as well under Wine as they do under Windows). Wine doesn't emulate everything perfectly, and especially on some faster paced games (like many first person shooters), it does a very poor job at performance.

Brinstar said: wine does a good enough job, which is what matters for the time being. yes there may come a time when linux/ubuntu can do everything, unfortunately that time is not 2009 (or even 2010 for that matter), so lets start being realistic and admit the wine project is fulfilling a *present* major need of the community (and doing a pretty good job at it).

Doing a good job *for you*? I have quite a few programs Wine can't handle, does that mean I'm the exception? For example, SimCity 3000 won't work with Wine, nor will my SimGolf or Sim Theme Park games (I got them all as a pack when I was younger). I know there is Lincity, but it isn't nearly as good as SimCity, imo. Also, some of my school programs don't work with Wine.

In summary, my biggest gripes about putting Wine in is that it is still very buggy on many programs and encourages people to keep using the same programs they used on Windows rather than try the alternatives. Putting Wine in as default basically says that Ubuntu is supporting it, and it would be a lot of maintaining to keep updating Wine every few weeks for each release it has *for each release which is still supported*. Snapshots wouldn't work, since Wine gets updates frequently to fix bugs, and supporting it here on the forums could be a nightmare. Also, people can install it if they absolutely need it (no other alternative works for them), but it should be left out to encourage people to at least try the alternatives.