Time to Get Rid of OpenOffice.org and Evolution?

Ubuntu is "Linux for Human Beings" it's whole strategy is focused around being the lowest common denominator for users. Tools like OpenOffice.org and Evolution are not built for the average user. They include many unnecessary features for a common tasks and have as such large amount of UI clutter.

In the case of OOo I (and many others) have NEVER used presentation or spreadsheet. Yet, they are there even on UNE. The word processor I have used but even that is a specialized use case (attending post secondary). For my parents or brother? Those programs have no meaning. They just sit there doing absolutely nothing. If by chance they are opened, they present a confusing array of options and menus.

As for evolution it is really suited to a business use case. Most people I know just use web mail and those that don't (like my parents) may need someone to help them set up the email accounts every time they reinstall.

So what do we do? Firstly, remove presentation and spreadsheet. Moreover, we can remove writer and replace it with a simple (offline) writing application). Lastly, kill evolution and replace it with nothing (or maybe a basic tool that creates a prism app out of their webmail).

Of course OO.org and Evolution would be offered through Ubuntu Software Center for individuals and businesses that need them.

So what do you think? Are these apps "musts" on the desktop or can we axe all of them? Which applications should be killed? What should we replace them with?

Edit: I have noticed many people saying the "use" an application. How do you use it? Do you use all the functionality? Do you use it only because it is there? Do you use it daily, weekly or just occasionally?

Keep OOo. I believe it has been dropped from the default install for UNE since 10.04 LTS.

Replace Evolution with Thunderbird.

Office and Outlook are two of the most popular software applications in the world. Ubuntu provides alternatives. I don't see the problem. :)

If you are concerned that Ubuntu is too big, I would counter that it fits on a single CD and installs in less than 4g of hard drive space (0.4% of a typical 1TB hard drive).

I don't think that presentation and spreasheet are useless. Many times I have used both for school and I am far from being savvy on using them. I think it's better to keep them in case you might need them. You never know when that might be.

As for Evolution, I never actually got it to work... That's why I use Thunderbird instead.

I use Gmail and do not have OpenOffice.org installed. I have AbiWord for wordprocessing but I do most of my writing in Tomboy thee days. I hope to use Ease for viewing presentations which is currently a bit problematic for me.

I would probably nuke Evolution in Maverick and focus on getting really good integration from the email platforms people actually use (GMail, Hotmail, Yahoo!, etc.). OpenOffice.org should probably stay, but I am pleased to see that integration of Google Docs and Zoho is progressing as well as continued progress for AbiWord.

Is this a troll? Remove the office suite? Might as well call it Windows.

Also, how come the poll doesn't have a none-of-the-above option?

I'm already pissed that GIMP was removed from default install, and the fact that compiz-config-settings-manager has never been included. Yeah, we've got compiz installed by default, but you can't actually configure it. =P

Keep Open Office and replace Evolution with Thunderbird.

i use abiword & desktop-webmail, i can open presentations in gmail so no loss there. i can understand & be just fine with the standard gnome-office, but openoffice is the popular choice & it's even used on windows by those not willing to pay the outrages prices, so i really don't see a problem with keeping it.

Also, how come the poll doesn't have a none-of-the-above option?

I agree...I use them all..... rt

It all depends on what you do with your computer. If you've never used Calc, you've probably never used Excel either. I use Excel nearly every day at work, and have uses for it at home too. Need a quick place to analyze a financial decision? Easy way to organize anything (names, addresses, etc) in a tabular format? Calc is suitable for both of these.

As far as Writer, as a college student and professional, documents are a part of my life. I couldn't live without an office suite. At work I have to run Windows, so I run MS Office. At home, I often need MS Office compatibility. OOo isn't 100%, but it's close. What do you use when you need to draft a letter (not an e-mail) for some reason - resume, admissions letter, letter to a company, etc?

As far as Evolution... I somewhat prefer Thunderbird, but it doesn't tie in as well with Gnome, so I go back and forth. I have Yahoo! Mail and never use it. Why? No IMAP/POP access for free. GMail has that, and I'd far rather use a client than the web interface. I just find it more robust, and I can use it when I'm not on the internet - on the train, for example. I'll use the web interface if it's my only option.

I don't use presentation because I rarely need that at home and find that it's not compatible enough with PowerPoint to bother doing school projects with it... I'll just use it at work.

However, offering Ubuntu with a full-featured office product such as OOo is one of its strong points. Many people buy MS-Office because they have the need to do these things, and Windows of course does not come with them installed. Also MS Office 2007 SP1 and later support the ODF formats, so cross-platform compatibility is becoming an option.

I'm sure using a smaller, lighter office product might save some space, but being as close to MS-Office compatible plays into the user-friendly aura that Ubuntu is trying to build. If OOo goes away, the forum will be overrun with "what kind of system is this, I can't open a DOC file" posts...

I use evolution with gmail google contacts and google calendar and it works great and is easy to set up. I like having the emails saved on my computer for offline browsing. It also feels a little snappier and feature complete than using a web client.

I use evolution and I like it. OO writer and spreadsheet get used a lot.

Calmor said:

I'm sure using a smaller, lighter office product might save some space, but being as close to MS-Office compatible plays into the user-friendly aura that Ubuntu is trying to build. If OOo goes away, the forum will be overrun with "what kind of system is this, I can't open a DOC file" posts...

OOo like MS Office has a large amount of functionality and is VERY useful. But only when you need that functionality. Which for many is rarely. It is a tool that, like GIMP, that is there for Professionals.

Of course there are a lot more "professionals" in the office space.. many people having received training in school or as part of the job. Yet, how about those that haven't? Or have but no longer use that functionality. Why keep an office suite in which only a fraction of your user base uses the full power of? Why not replace those programs with simpler, easier to use ones (with the ability to read Docs)?

Moreover, many people seem to forget that Ubuntu has one great advantage over Windows and OS X: the software center. That tool vastly simplifies the hunt for software and makes installation a breeze. Why not use that? Why not put people in front of simple applications first and allow them to choose when they need that functionality?

This idea for the removal of OOo and evolution does not stem from saving space but rather making Ubuntu: "Linux for Human Beings." Making it as easy and simple as possible while having the flexibility to add on specialized tools.

Slug71 said: Replace Evolution with Thunderbird.

This is not going to happen any time soon.

I can imagine that when Evolution Express(another interface to evolution designed for netbooks;used in Moblin;formerly known as Anjal) matures you will see it in the Netbook Edition.

I have no idea what kind of thing qualifies as a "professional". I do not working an office. I do not use my box horse back.

I do use the full set of things offered in OOo (presentation rarely) and Gimp gets used just about every day.

Do not make the mistake of thinking your case is typical. If I did that I would be wanting to get rid of compiz, all the cheesy games, Ubuntu One, anything to do with Google.

I doubt that you would be any happier with that that than I am with your suggestions.

Start your own distro.

Ellipsis said: This idea for the removal of OOo and evolution does not stem from saving space but rather making Ubuntu: "Linux for Human Beings." Making it as easy and simple as possible while having the flexibility to add on specialized tools.

Human beings, in my experience, like Stuff. Therefore I vote that Ubuntu continue to cram as much Stuff onto the Live CD as possible. Human nature being what it is, Joe Average will choose the product with 101 features over the product with only 100 features every time.

Besides, I do not understand how removing an application you don't personally use would make the system more "easy and simple" to use. One example you mentioned is you don't use Evolution because you prefer Hotmail through the web interface. How would removing Evolution make Hotmail easier and simpler to use? :)

Open Office is a must. It has made my life easier. I certainly hate Evolution and it should be replaced by Thunderbird. Different people have different perspective and usage. According to me, There should be an option during installation that what default software do you want to use. People who are connected to net can easily choose to have their favorite software as default.

* Ubuntu is no longer democracy. *

Evolution is an integral part of the upstream Gnome desktop. It will always be the default email client for the Gnome version of Ubuntu.

Calmor said: It all depends on what you do with your computer. If you've never used Calc, you've probably never used Excel either. I use Excel nearly every day at work, and have uses for it at home too. Need a quick place to analyze a financial decision? Easy way to organize anything (names, addresses, etc) in a tabular format? Calc is suitable for both of these.

As far as Writer, as a college student and professional, documents are a part of my life. I couldn't live without an office suite. At work I have to run Windows, so I run MS Office. At home, I often need MS Office compatibility. OOo isn't 100%, but it's close. What do you use when you need to draft a letter (not an e-mail) for some reason - resume, admissions letter, letter to a company, etc?

As far as Evolution... I somewhat prefer Thunderbird, but it doesn't tie in as well with Gnome, so I go back and forth. I have Yahoo! Mail and never use it. Why? No IMAP/POP access for free. GMail has that, and I'd far rather use a client than the web interface. I just find it more robust, and I can use it when I'm not on the internet - on the train, for example. I'll use the web interface if it's my only option.

I don't use presentation because I rarely need that at home and find that it's not compatible enough with PowerPoint to bother doing school projects with it... I'll just use it at work.

However, offering Ubuntu with a full-featured office product such as OOo is one of its strong points. Many people buy MS-Office because they have the need to do these things, and Windows of course does not come with them installed. Also MS Office 2007 SP1 and later support the ODF formats, so cross-platform compatibility is becoming an option.

I'm sure using a smaller, lighter office product might save some space, but being as close to MS-Office compatible plays into the user-friendly aura that Ubuntu is trying to build. If OOo goes away, the forum will be overrun with "what kind of system is this, I can't open a DOC file" posts...

there are plenty of how to's to activate the free pop feature for yahoo. http://picobit.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/yahoo-mail-free-pop-access/

what i do is have gmail pop my yahoo & hotmail, so i only need to check gmail. settings "accounts & imports"-> "Check mail using POP3:"

sorry for the off topic. :)

snowpine said: Human beings, in my experience, like Stuff. Therefore I vote that Ubuntu continue to cram as much Stuff onto the Live CD as possible. Human nature being what it is, Joe Average will choose the product with 101 features over the product with only 100 features every time.

Besides, I do not understand how removing an application you don't personally use would make the system more "easy and simple" to use. One example you mentioned is you don't use Evolution because you prefer Hotmail through the web interface. How would removing Evolution make Hotmail easier and simpler to use? :)

From my experience a user will use the most useful tool. Not the one with the most features. Cramming in more features does not make a tool necessarily more useful.

Evolution for example is complex: you have to handle POP/IMAP accounts etc. before you can get running. It is not as simple as webmail: which after a login you are already working with.

slug71 said: keep ooo.

Replace evolution with thunderbird. +1

Easy way to keep both camps happy. During install...

Do you want an Office Suite installed (Open Office)? Y/N Do you want an imaging program (GIMP) installed? Y/N Do you want an email client (Evolution) installed? Y/N

Install whatever is marked and don't install what isn't marked.

There should be an Advanced and a Default option so that you can select what you want so if you want it to be fully loaded than you can and if all you want is a GUI and the terminal, then you can do that too.

If there was a DVD version of this then you could go one step further and have an Ubuntu Full Installation DVD: Do you want to install Gnome, KDE, XFCE? And then ask what you want installed, Gnomes office suite, KDE's office suite, or XFCE's.

You'd be amazed. A *lot* of people love their email client, I personally just use web mail. Although I can see why a client is so nice.

But really? Of all the programs that should come out of a base install the word processor and email client are *not* the place to start. You do realize that these are _the_ most popular pieces of software in existence.

Ellipsis said: Evolution for example is complex: you have to handle POP/IMAP accounts etc. before you can get running. It is not as simple as webmail: which after a login you are already working with.

Accessing hotmail on an Ubuntu computer with Evolution preinstalled:

• Launch Firefox
• Navigate to hotmail.com
• Enter username and password

Accessing hotmail on an Ubuntu computer without Evolution:

• Launch Firefox
• Navigate to hotmail.com
• Enter username and password

It is the same. Removing Evolution has not made Ubuntu any easier or more simple to use. :)

jerome1232 said: You'd be amazed. A *lot* of people love their email client, I personally just use web mail. Although I can see why a client is so nice.

But really? Of all the programs that should come out of a base install the word processor and email client are *not* the place to start. You do realize that these are _the_ most popular pieces of software in existence.

Lol It was an idea.

But there is overwhelming support for keeping them and they seem to be more useful to people than I gave them credit for. So the answer to the question in the title: No but a switch to Thunderbird would be welcome by nearly everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. =D

Very nice. I use all four and there is no way for me to vote on this poll to indicate that.

The only one that I don't use every single day is OOo Impress, but I still use it several times each month.

The office suite, email client and the browser might be the most important packets in an operating system. Almost everyone use webmails today, but a local client is commonly used inside companies. I agree that Openoffice could be a lot better too, but it never receives the "effort" that it deserves from SUN and now Oracle seens to be taking the same path. I think that it should created an Openoffice foundation to take care of it, just like the apache foundation and eclipse foundation. Openoffice is too important project to be ruled by a private company with other interests.

soham_1207 said:

* Ubuntu is no longer democracy. *

When was it ever?

I think you are confused about the ethic of OSS...

I can't see how you can render OOo as useless... What about the people that do a lot of word processing? Or spreadsheets? Linux isn't just for programming geeks now, many people use it day in and day out as *regular* computer users, who do indeed rely on office software.

As for Evolution, I got it to work fine so I have no issues with it still being kept. Though replacing it with Thunderbird would not bother me

Hey guys, lets remove from gnome from ubuntu because it has all these unnecessary features I never use.

I don't use Evolution, but my wife does. Ditto for OOo. She is in college and she has turned a few fellow students onto OOo that were otherwise going to purchase MS Office.

She has done all of her papers, and has done presentations with it.

Should it be removed? I would think that if someone doesn't want it, they could remove it themselves.

Longinus00 said: Hey guys, lets remove from gnome from ubuntu because it has all these unnecessary features I never use.

lol lets drop everything but the kernel

KdotJ said: lol lets drop everything but the kernel

The kernel? With all those drivers for devices I don't need? So much bloat! We need to get rid of that too!

Thunderbird doesn't replace Evolution. I need the calendar integration, and Thunderbird doesn't do the job. For email, they're almost identical, but email isn't the entire world of computing.

I agree the poll is bogus. I use all of them, and thus I can't vote. Your results are going to be bogus. People need to think through their polls before starting them up. Like Ranch Hand said, don't make the mistake of thinking you're typical, and certainly not the only representative of anything.

rtalcott said: also, how come the poll doesn't have a none-of-the-above option?

i agree...i use them all..... Rt

+1

I'm tired so I didn't read the not so I voted for all three OO apps but yeah I use all of them, and it's weird that there's no option for that.

I would say the vast, vast majority of people still use office suites, and remember Ubuntu is Linux for human beings, not Linux for human beings who already use Ubuntu.

That being said, I think even among ubuntu users a LOT of us still use OO. I'm in college and I have to use writer, calc, presentation, and spreadsheet. Most people I know, both students and those in the work force, at least have to use writer. OO is a bit heavy and in terms of functionality maybe some of the lighter options are better for people in terms of functionality vs performance, but in my experience OO is by far the best at opening MS files, so I'd still need it even if I was using abiword or something like that.

i don't use evolution - i reinstall my systems way too often to migrate my mail all the time :)

but i do use OOo and extensively! all my work that is not written in LaTeX is written in OOo...

there is no need to get rid of OOo... WHY? do we really need more space on the cd? who uses cd's anyway? i do all my installs with a usb stick... and we have dvd's now... and blue-rays :) just imagine what you could fit onto a blue-ray disk

i know i know people in other parts of the world are happy to even have cd's, but it is 2010... we should all be flying with our space-cars by now :D and we are talking about some silly 700 MB (that is 0.00067 TB)

I never use Evolution. Its big, slow, clunky and its IMAP implementation is rubbish. I always replace it with Thunderbird!

Kill Evolution, replace it with Thunderbird. I used OO once in 3 months but I still think it should stay because it's one of the programs that drives people to Ubuntu.

I get on well with Evolution, it synchronises my Google Contacts and Calendar very well.

I don't use OpenOffice much, I don't really write anything.

I use empathy gwibber and Evolution all the time! openoffice.org when i want to write something up is the only solution that i would use!!:popcorn:

Grenage said: I get on well with Evolution, it synchronises my Google Contacts and Calendar very well.

+1 there. Also gnome integration and the backup feature is excellent. I back it up and stick the tar into UbuntuOne. Also the forward and back buttons actually work!

Thunderbird 3, as someone complained in the forums recently, is a bit bloated now. Especially for the not so new machines.

JohnnyC35 said: Easy way to keep both camps happy. During install...

Do you want an Office Suite installed (Open Office)? Y/N Do you want an imaging program (GIMP) installed? Y/N Do you want an email client (Evolution) installed? Y/N

Install whatever is marked and don't install what isn't marked.

There should be an Advanced and a Default option so that you can select what you want so if you want it to be fully loaded than you can and if all you want is a GUI and the terminal, then you can do that too.

If there was a DVD version of this then you could go one step further and have an Ubuntu Full Installation DVD: Do you want to install Gnome, KDE, XFCE? And then ask what you want installed, Gnomes office suite, KDE's office suite, or XFCE's.

I don't know if it's that way anymore or not, but years ago when Mandriva was called Mandrake, that's exactly how the installer worked. There was a whole page of checkmarks, and you would choose all the different stuff you did or did not want.

It was actually nice, but the down side was that it meant having either a DVD or a multi-CD installation. One of the niceties of Ubuntu, is the single small image. However, adding these sorts of options to the DVD image would be a good thing for a lot of people, especially those people who are so wierd they don't want an office suit installed on their system...........

At best, evolution should be offered as a setup option. If Applications>Ubuntu Software Center had a recommended section, it should be there. The main problem is Evolution scares people used to other mail clients.

I use both at home and at work.

Evolution is a really nice piece of software and i do really prefer it over thunderbird for many reasons (full and solid exchange calendar support for instance).

I can't see how removing such a good app from default install is a step forward.

For this poll to have any meaning or accuracy whatsoever you need to have the option:

I use them all!

As it is it's like, which leg would you prefer to lose:

1) Left 2) Right

I'd prefer neither :)

kansasnoob said: For this poll to have any meaning or accuracy whatsoever you need to have the option:

I use them all!

As it is it's like, which leg would you prefer to lose:

1) Left 2) Right

I'd prefer neither :)

Both as long as I get 6 Million Dollar man legs. Run in slow-mo but actually run super fast! :P

I use openoffice calc almost everyday. Use writer sometimes.

Don't use evolution, but might when I update to 10.04.

Getting rid of openoffice default would cripple ubuntu. openoffice works in linux/mac/windows. So it is great office suite to have available on any computer.

andrewabc said: I use openoffice calc almost everyday.

Use writer sometimes.

Don't use evolution, but might when I update to 10.04.

Getting rid of openoffice default would cripple ubuntu. openoffice works in linux/mac/windows. So it is great office suite to have available on any computer.

+1

Removing OO would cripple Ubuntu. The alternatives are not as good.

rudihawk said: +1

Removing OO would cripple Ubuntu. The alternatives are not as good.

"Better than the rest" does not imply "good."

Also, I put it to you that BorgOffice under WINE is, for most purposes, a *better* office suite for Linux than OO.o. It's more featureful, has a better user interface (that actually uses standard UI components with regards to the OS, unlike OO.o), and doesn't crash spontaneously before falling into a recursive loop of trying to recover a corrupt file.

Surely there's a case for a major overhaul (i.e. a rewrite) of OO.o, or a new office suite with apps based on AbiWord and GNOME Spreadsheet?

jrothwell97 said: "Better than the rest" does not imply "good."

Also, I put it to you that BorgOffice under WINE is, for most purposes, a *better* office suite for Linux than OO.o. It's more featureful, has a better user interface (that actually uses standard UI components with regards to the OS, unlike OO.o), and doesn't crash spontaneously before falling into a recursive loop of trying to recover a corrupt file.

I guess you're referring to Microsoft Office? As it is commercial there is no way it would be included by default so I'm not even sure what you're suggesting there. Besides, a UI that uses standard components? Have you used the more recent version of Office with the ribbon?

jrothwell97 said: Surely there's a case for a major overhaul (i.e. a rewrite) of OO.o, or a new office suite with apps based on AbiWord and GNOME Spreadsheet?

There is a case for an overhaul of OO.o with Project Renaissance, but with Oracle's acquisition of Sun its timetable is questionable

Merk42 said: I guess you're referring to Microsoft Office? As it is commercial there is no way it would be included by default

Of course it wouldn't. I'm merely pointing out the irony that Microsoft Office, ostensibly a Windows application from an evil corporation, is a better office suite for Linux than those which are *designed* for Linux.

Merk42 said: Besides, a UI that uses standard components? Have you used the more recent version of Office with the ribbon?

I point you to the fact that the Ribbon is, in fact, the new "standard component." It's part of the UI toolkit in Windows 7 as these samples demonstrate.

Merk42 said: There is a case for an overhaul of OO.o with Project Renaissance, but with Oracle's acquisition of Sun its timetable is questionable

Renaissance was mostly based around replacing the UI with something would probably (judging by the mock ups) have been even worse. A far more useful move would have been to get the UI to obey the native guidelines for each environment: by that, I mean standard preferences dialogues, no images in the menus on Linux or OS X, no overflowing toolbars on Mac, a ribbon on Windows, etc.

The design should always conform to the native UI guidelines of the target system.

This is before we even begin to get onto the matters of speed, stability, the monolithic program structure (bizarrely, *everything* lives in one process) and Office compatibility.

I can appreciate the need to gain more space in the installation CD and would like to keep Ubuntu to a single installation CD.

I could agree to letting Evolution and OpenOffice go. Much of OpenOffice could be replaced by AbiWord and Gnumeric. If a user really needs OpenOffice, they can grab it from the repos. I have always thought Thunderbird should replace Evolution.

Another reason to get rid of OpenOffice is that its packages would no longer be tied to dependencies with other Ubuntu components. If I did not have to remove OpenOffice, I would be freed to EASILY download the latest .DEBS from the OpenOffice website and install that version and keep OpenOffice updated without having to update my entire system. I see removing OpenOffice from the default install actually HELPING OpenOffice users stay up-to-date more easily than if OpenOffice were installed by default.

Xubuntu has done this already. Xubuntu includes AbiWord, Gnumeric, and Thunderbird - and Xubuntu's got the mix right.

I can't see the problem. OOo is an effective replacement for M$O and *much* cheaper, especially when compared with the versions of M$O with Access, but I daresay it doesn't suit everyone. So be it - but if you (anonymous user) prefer M$O, fine - but if that's the case, why are you using Linux? Evolution is a reasonable replacement for Outlook, though I don't know how well it might interact with an Exchange setup. It suffers with the same minor drawback that Outlook does, in my book, in that it does not by default sort mail for different accounts into different folders, a deal breaker in favour of Thunderbird for me - but that's just me. You may have a different set of priorities.

As for removing them from the default installation, why? Most users have a need for some kind of mail application, and some sort of word processing capability; spreadsheets get used to for all sorts of ingenious ideas - and nobody's asking you to pay for them, neither do they take up an inordinate amount of space, but if you don't like them, it can't be beyond the wit of a Linux user to remove them, surely?

Doesn't all this discussion just point to the need to have some sort of "base" install that doesn't have any non-required applications? So no Open-Office, no Evolution (if possible) no Thunderbird, no firefox, no chrome, no games, nothing but the truely needed components to actually have a desktop come up (I'm assuming it would be Gnome, although that could be open to question)?

Ubuntu minimal.

philinux said: Ubuntu minimal.

Precisely, possibly even just make it an option in the install a "do you want to install the default applications?" type question that way it doesn't even need to be separate version (and that way, it could be in Kubuntu, and all other versions of the buntu distro too).

No, no.

He's saying *Ubuntu Minimal*

jerome1232 said: No, no.

He's saying *Ubuntu Minimal*

Not entirely sure that's what I mean..

My read (and I wasn't aware of the Ubuntu Minimal) of the information is that it's still the regular ubuntu, just that it downloads the packages when you install so you always get the latest and greatest (and don't need to install, then download package updates).

I'll try it tonight just because I've never used Ubuntu Minimal and (to me) it actually makes a lot of sense.

Arla said: Precisely, possibly even just make it an option in the install a "do you want to install the default applications?" type question that way it doesn't even need to be separate version (and that way, it could be in Kubuntu, and all other versions of the buntu distro too).

I do not think you quite understand the "minimal install". This does not come an a Live CD.

You do download a CD ISO. What you get is under 13Mb. You install that and you can boot to a kernel with a connection and a CLI.

You then install what ever you want.

Being more comfortable with a gui, I install one first. Every DE in the repos is there so what ever flavor of Ubuntu you want is there. I avoid the meta packages as much as I can.

I also install synaptic with the desktop so that I can see what all is available.

It is a real neat deal. It is also really known as "Netboot". Check here;

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/

Ranchhand, thanks for the info, okay it does sound MORE like what I was thinking, reading the documentation it didn't sound like that's what it was doing so will have to try playing with it, more fun for tonight :)

I think many of use are losing sight of the fact that Ubuntu is a one size fits all distribution. It is set up to be immediately usable once the installation is finished. For a new user this is a big bonus, they don't have to go out and look for an office suite, an email client, or just about any other app that an average user needs to get on with using their computer.

Once they have learned to use what is available, they have the choice to keep using it or to find something that works better for them.

One additional thing to look at, is that it might be that Ubuntu is set up the way it is for the paying customers, and the rest of us using it get to do so for free.

ranch hand said: I do not think you quite understand the "minimal install". This does not come an a Live CD.

You do download a CD ISO. What you get is under 13Mb. You install that and you can boot to a kernel with a connection and a CLI.

You then install what ever you want.

Being more comfortable with a gui, I install one first. Every DE in the repos is there so what ever flavor of Ubuntu you want is there. I avoid the meta packages as much as I can.

I also install synaptic with the desktop so that I can see what all is available.

It is a real neat deal. It is also really known as "Netboot". Check here;

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/

Having that option of a Minimal Install would be a good alternative on the install CD. Base GUI install of KDE, XFCE, Gnome. I have never been able to get the minimal or alternative CD to work properly for me :(

[ ] check here if you want a minimal install rather than default

You fail at polling methods.

I use the Text, Presenter and Spreadsheet regularly for work purposes.

I'd install them if they weren't there!

Jay

What many of you miss is that many of these human beings do not have 24/7 broadband so don't have access to online mail etc and in fact still rely on pop mail. I live in South Africa where many South African's who are privileged enough to be middle class and have access to computers still largely use dial-up at home, get their mail and go offline. My parents for example aren't interested in all sorts of fancy online stuff they just want to be able to download their mail and then be able to read and respond to various Office attachments. Also not shipping them with Ubuntu CD would mean humans have to be online for potentially hours trying to install these applications at pricey and incredibly slow rates.

datraveller said: What many of you miss is that many of these human beings do not have 24/7 broadband so don't have access to online mail etc and in fact still rely on pop mail. I live in South Africa where many South African's who are privileged enough to be middle class and have access to computers still largely use dial-up at home, get their mail and go offline. My parents for example aren't interested in all sorts of fancy online stuff they just want to be able to download their mail and then be able to read and respond to various Office attachments. Also not shipping them with Ubuntu CD would mean humans have to be online for potentially hours trying to install these applications at pricey and incredibly slow rates.

Dial up is something that the entire Ubuntu community, including Canonical, seem to find way too easy to ignore.

Slug71 said: Keep OOo.

I believe it has been dropped from the default install for UNE since 10.04 LTS.

Replace Evolution with Thunderbird.

Seconded.

as one who was stuck with dialup ( only thing available in my area at the time) until a couple of years ago I can testify that even if it isn't expensive ( in my case it wasn't ) it is still a pain in the butt to have to tie up your phone for 12 or so hrs a day , I used to let it run from about 6 pm until 7 am .

Again, Thunderbird is not a replacement for Evolution, which is much more than an email client. Open Office is also a lot more than a word processor. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean most people don't. It's a lot easier to add a word processor or email client than an entire suite. Ubuntu is designed for the masses, not just for you. If you really have to have different default programs in your installation, there are lots of other distros available.

1) Use use all of them. 2) Getting rid of OOo would be nonsense. 3) Your poll is flawed.

I would like to think that OpenOffice.org and Evolution are *the* stars of the Ubuntu desktop and (along with Firefox) an example of what open source software is really all about.

Rather than removing them, I think their UI's should be updated instead as they both look outdated.

I use them all very often in Ubuntu (except maybe the OO-spreadsheet. where is the "Don't get rid of them" option in the poll :confused:

I don't use OpenOffice; but I can certainly see it's worth (I'll use GNU Emacs with LaTeX for document preparation - not everyone's cup of tea).

However, I literally rely on Evolution, I would hate to see it removed.

Never got Evolution to work, so Thunderbird it is!

I don't use OOo Presentation at all, but that's because I know how gimp works :)

I don't think removing functionality from the ubuntu experience will make it more popular or user friendly. If that's the argument there are a lot of System Administration stuff that can be left out by default too, but why?

hellblazer said: Never got Evolution to work, so Thunderbird it is!

I didn't find setting up evo any more or less difficult than thunderbird. I switched about a year ago.

I've read on the net/blogs etc that people are saying that TB3 is a bit bloated and uses more system resources than TB2, has anyone noticed this to be true?

What about Evolution in Maverick. It is being kept back for quite some time... I do not use it but it, kind of, makes me nervous every time I do an upgrade... Should I let it dump evolution-exchange?

zika said: What about Evolution in Maverick. It is being kept back for quite some time... I do not use it but it, kind of, makes me nervous every time I do an upgrade... Should I let it dump evolution-exchange?

IIRC, it upgrade all yesterday with a dist-upgrade and yes that gets removed. I would use update mangler to read the change logs.

philinux said: IIRC, it upgrade all yesterday with a dist-upgrade and yes that gets removed. I would use update mangler to read the change logs.

I would have used UM if it worked... There is a post about it somewhere here. Never mind, mail just came with changelog of evolution-exchange. Yes, I've read changelog before that mail, but it did not resolve my doubt. Thank You. Found it: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=9324971&postcount=9

Keep Open Office and replace Evolution with Thunderbird.

The only one I haven't used more than once or twice is the open office presentation application. I think Open Office is great in that it does what MS Office does for free. If you are familiar with MS Office then you can work with OOo.

OOo is default installed in UNE.

I also use Evolution. I think it is good. The only think I would add is the ability to view email trains as conversations similar to the way you would see them in some web mail providers. That's a sort of esoteric desire though. I just like that format.

I use and abuse OpenOffice.org Writer, as for the others, no need for them. Good professors export slideshows to PDF. No other Gnome writing tool offers what I need for writing. I would not mind it if I had to install OO.o myself. I won't cry like the the GIMP lovers did.

Evolution is a waste of space. Thunderbird is perfect, because it is easy to set up with gmail. In this case, I already have to install Thunderbird anyway, so getting rid of Evolution saves me from writing a command on an install.

OO.o is ok, But I have stopped using Evolution

I haven't read the entire thread since it is so long but here is my opinion.

I used Thunderbird for a short time several years ago, It was before 2.0 came out. Since 2.0 it has had broken IMAP sorting and is basically useless for the large volume of mail that I receive. The particular bug has been known for about 7 years now, but somehow didn't actually affect Thunderbird prior to 2.0 release. I think it still hasn't been fixed, though its possible they might have with 3.0. Evolution works for the most part and when bugs crop up they seem to get fixed a lot faster than with Thunderbird.

Removing individual apps of OpenOffice.org won't do much for space savings other than when Base was removed which allowed the related Java bits to be dropped. That is because almost all of the OOo functionality is in the core. So I don't think removing an individual app to save a small amount of space would really be a good thing, considering how many people use them.

IME Evolution is at least as easy to set up with gmail as Thunderbird. Just tell it that it's a gmail account, and it's ready to go.

Zika, you can ditch evolution-exchange unless you're using Evolution to sync to a Microsoft Exchange server. That's what it does.

jjcv said: +1

I actually do use all the programs, mainly for university work. Evolution is great with google calendar so I can have my whole calendar by just clicking on the clock. I'd really, really hate to have any of them removed.

jrothwell97 said:

Surely there's a case for a major overhaul (i.e. a rewrite) of OO.o, or a new office suite with apps based on AbiWord and GNOME Spreadsheet?

KOffice 2 is coming along nicely, though it would require KDE libraries and so wouldn't do well for the standard Ubuntu liveCD.

VeeDubb said: I don't know if it's that way anymore or not, but years ago when Mandriva was called Mandrake, that's exactly how the installer worked. There was a whole page of checkmarks, and you would choose all the different stuff you did or did not want.

That was pretty much how EVERY linux installer worked before about 2004; then along came Knoppix, Mepis, Kanotix, Ubuntu, and all the rest with 1-disc LiveCD installation.

To call this approach revolutionary is putting it mildly. I would bet without the LiveCD approach and simplified installer, we'd have a lot less Linux users around.

I do believe you are correct. I am just about to do another netboot install and it is kind of a pain.

The old Mandrake installer was some what simpler but I do not think any less daunting to a noob.

Ellipsis said: Ubuntu is "Linux for Human Beings" it's whole strategy is focused around being the lowest common denominator for users. Tools like OpenOffice.org and Evolution are not built for the average user. They include many unnecessary features for a common tasks and have as such large amount of UI clutter.

In the case of OOo I (and many others) have NEVER used presentation or spreadsheet. Yet, they are there even on UNE. The word processor I have used but even that is a specialized use case (attending post secondary).

My wife and I make frequent use of Open Office word processor, in my case nearly daily. I copy sections of articles from the internet with graphics etc. for reference or print. The spreadsheet I use for income tax purposes, general calculations, etc. Presentation I have used, but lately for what I do Picassa does O.K. I just make up my own slides.

Absolutely never use Evolution. Ever. For email I use several computers so I use AOL, gmail, yahoo, etc. which I can access from my own or others computers.

I have no use at all for Abiword or other limited function word processors.

I don't care if Open Office is on the CD or not, I can download it. If there's a release of Ubuntu that can't run Open Office I'll never use that release.

For that matter, I never use the ubuntu games. Ever. If they were just on the software store that would be best case.

Jerry

Though I hardly ever use OO I wouldn't remove it, I have no opinion on evolution, I haven't tried using it in ages. I would love to see a gnome minimal install disk, something in the 100 to 150 MB size range, I think it would allow you to install & build from there. The current minimal install ISO, is fine if you're connected by wire but a pain in the tail if connecting to a secured access point. Of course this is also a fringe case, so might not be worth the effort. But, the base install ISO is fine as is.

I use Evolution with 3 email accounts with no problems and Open Office is the only option that is close to feature complete with Microsoft Office (which, unfortunately, is the standard for comparison). For anyone who uses Ubuntu for day to day business (which I do) these are necessary programs. Thunderbird doesn't have calendar or task options and the other open source office suites either require KDE libs (Koffice) which will bloat the base install or are don't have all the features necessary to integrate into a business setting that has existing Microsoft Office installations (Gnumeric and Abiword).

I'm not sure why I'm even writing this considering this pole is completely meaningless. It is only collecting data from people who don't use at least one of the listed applications and people like myself who use all of them have no way to be counted.

I'm not trolling I swear, I just think it's ridiculous that the "replace Evolution with Thunderbird" and "remove OpenOffice" arguments seem to come up every development cycle. THERE ARE NO EXISTING OPEN SOURCE FEATURE FOR FEATURE REPLACEMENTS FOR OPENOFFICE AND EVOLUTION. Get over it.

andylawrence said: I use Evolution with 3 email accounts with no problems and Open Office is the only option that is close to feature complete with Microsoft Office (which, unfortunately, is the standard for comparison). For anyone who uses Ubuntu for day to day business (which I do) these are necessary programs. Thunderbird doesn't have calendar or task options and the other open source office suites either require KDE libs (Koffice) which will bloat the base install or are don't have all the features necessary to integrate into a business setting that has existing Microsoft Office installations (Gnumeric and Abiword).

I'm not sure why I'm even writing this considering this pole is completely meaningless. It is only collecting data from people who don't use at least one of the listed applications and people like myself who use all of them have no way to be counted.

I'm not trolling I swear, I just think it's ridiculous that the "replace Evolution with Thunderbird" and "remove OpenOffice" arguments seem to come up every development cycle. THERE ARE NO EXISTING OPEN SOURCE FEATURE FOR FEATURE REPLACEMENTS FOR OPENOFFICE AND EVOLUTION. Get over it.

Thunderbird does have a calendar. I was just using it. Evolution has no easy set up for gmail or any other free mail.

Being there are a lot of people who use neither Openoffice.org nor Evolution, I see no problem with making us install them upon a new installation so that the devs can have more room for important stuff.

Evolution is the first thing to go on all of my installs.

Realistic options re: OO.org

1. Include nothing at all - i.e. OS only
2. Include OO.org in full

In fact, I would argue that Base should also be included. Having a low feature-set Word Processor is a bad idea - smacks of the proprietary software seduction technique - basic stuff free, but useful stuff extra.

I don't really care about Evolution - decent alternatives are available, but something should be included for off-line email use.

Remeber, Ubuntu may be for Humans, but Humans work in businesses, write letters, keep basic accounts, write presentations for school and work...

Hi there.

Astute readers might notice that a "none of the above" option has been added to the poll.

Cheers.

lisati said: Hi there.

Astute readers might notice that a "none of the above" option has been added to the poll.

Cheers. Which is just silly when you have 197 respondents already.

This alright by me as I have yet to see a poll on these forums that makes the least bit of sense even if they address a subject that has merit, unlike this one.

ranch hand said: Which is just silly when you have 197 respondents already.

This alright by me as I have yet to see a poll on these forums that makes the least bit of sense even if they address a subject that has merit, unlike this one.

Well.... some of the early posts requested it.

Ah, I will remember that the nest time someone trying to an accurate poll doesn't ask the right question.

A new way to get inaccurate statistics. It is friendly though.

We are trying to have FUN.

FUN = Further Understanding Needed :)

leave evolution alone

i swapped to it years ago from chunderbird, oops, thunderbird

best thing i ever did was this

evolution is a magic bit of gear and i pretty much run my whole life on it now

the best bit is the single click to back up *EVERYTHING*

love it

I've just switched from Thunderbird to Evolution. I have always used OOo (Writer and Impress). No point to make here, just saying.

lisati said: Hi there.

Astute readers might notice that a "none of the above" option has been added to the poll.

Cheers.

thanks! voted it :popcorn:

I use all these applications for both work and personal use.

The problem with webmail for me is that I can be at a client's location and have no access to the Internet, having all my emails locally is a big plus. Also, I use the calendar, attaching Google calendar as well, and all the other features of Evolution extensively.

OOo does a great job, only wish they would step up on Base to bring it closer to MS Access.... just my 2 cents worth.

What a meaningless thread. What on earth is "the average user" ?

Are you suggesting that the OS comes with a few games, a few basic apps and Internet access of some kind?

May as well buy yourself a cell phone and forget about Ubuntu.

As for Evolution, have you actually tried to configure it with your e-mail accounts? Its <snip> really nice to use.

Being a web mail guy myself, I just went in and set up evolution.

It's actually very nice, not to mention that fact that I can have access to my old emails should I be without Internet for one reason or another.

I use Evolution and OpenOffice every day. In Evolution I use mail functions (receiving, creating and sending e-mails, both signing and encrypting functions), Contacts, Calendar (with its alarms). Evolution is really a great all-in-one suite. From all OpenOffice applications I never used Base (just tried one or two times) and very rarely Impress (Presentation). Abiword - a good, simple and lightweight application - is mostly used for its sharing option and for some simple text files which do not require serious formatting - in all other cases OpenOffice Writer is used, not just because it has many of necessary functions - many things could be done in Abiword with standard methods - but for easiness of their use and time saving they provide. Both Openoffice and Evolution are great products which provide functionality very many people need every day. The problem isn't in OpenOffice or Evolution but in the way they work in Ubuntu - unfortunately, Ubuntu developers seem to be very busy with making new releases, but not making them stable. I never met any problems working in Debian stable or CentOS, but it becomes a common practice using Ubuntu to search forums for workarounds and awaiting for bugfixes.

Somebody is having a laugh with these polls ......

Gimp went off the Distro .... for F-Spot Firefox .......... is in a poll to be replaced with Google Chrome/Chromium OpenOffice ..... to be replaced with ? maybe Tomboy Notes Evolution ........ to be replaced with sending messages by Post ......

Is Bill gates in charge of this ....... soon there will be nothing related to the origins of Linux to vote off ..... maybe that's the Big Picture .....

But I see the funny side now ....... we need couple more Polls now - one to remove VLC and another to remove all the original games ........

Once everything's gone we can start saying Ubuntu's crap its got nothing on it ..........

_____________________________________________________________________

Then have polls to vote things back to it ...... like GIMP and FIREFOX and OPENOFFICE but who would want these pre-installed anyway ......

What a pointless exercise ...

The Poll for Gimp reflected they should keep it ....... it still went off the disk though ...... luckily not many people have problems with Gimp now ..... as the new people have no idea its there. ( even though people said it would be advertised well )

Maybe we can look towards no problems at all ..... no problematic programs ....... no problems .......... and the music played on ....... :guitar: even though all the bands instruments slowly disappeared the Drummer used a pencil on a desk to tap out the beat the guitarist held some chord taught in his mouth to his foot and plucked away .....

But the real Instruments were in the shop ..... where they could go find them ...... if they knew they were there ...... !!!

( The Repository ..... soon everything is going to be there ....... what you mean it already is ....... can I get a drum machine from the repository ...... oh yes U can .... but I bet the majority of people don't know what's there ...... )

philinux said: IIRC, it upgrade all yesterday with a dist-upgrade and yes that gets removed. I would use update mangler to read the change logs.I the midst of GTK RGBA crisis, "Evolution being kept back" is resolved. Evolution-exchange is, finally, upgraded and all is clear. Thank You.

Ellipsis said: Lol It was an idea.

But there is overwhelming support for keeping them and they seem to be more useful to people than I gave them credit for. So the answer to the question in the title: No but a switch to Thunderbird would be welcome by nearly everyone.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. =D

^^ from the OP I think it might be time to close this now?

One Last Tip !

PPA to update Evolution 2.28 on Ubuntu 10.04 to 2.30 version:

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:jacob/evo230

I think that openoffice.org is a very good application, linux should get rid of evolution because it has some bugs and there's much more better IM applications than Evolution.

alenn said: I think that openoffice.org is a very good application, linux should get rid of evolution because it has some bugs and there's much more better IM applications than Evolution.

Evolution is an Email client

Empathy is an IM client.

Replacing Evolution with Thunderbird would be welcomed by almost everyone? Did you even read your thread?

Thunderbird's implementation of IMAP seems to block the UI every time you send an email, the whole program goes gray for several seconds on a slow email server...

Not to mention the lack of a calendar option.

-1

rudihawk said: I never use Evolution. Its big, slow, clunky and its IMAP implementation is rubbish. I always replace it with Thunderbird!

I do not quite understand why normal people want to remove an office suit and email client. It is one of the essential things for an operative system. Assume you remove these applications what do you have left? Not much I tell you. Feels like some people want the old way where you only have a bare system and you had to install X and Gnome from scratch.

Perhaps in the future everything is in the cloud but until then. A copy of a text editor is needed!

For myself I use Vim and LaTeX. Though I do not want to remove the office suit. There are still quite many files that use .doc format.

Seriously, some people can consider removing the office suite? As someone who uses his computer to work with, it's a foolish idea to remove the word processor, or presentation. Without a word processor, all a computer is good for is graphics and interwebs...and the majority of people I know that use their computer for a purpose, use it for writing things...

Admittedly, I personally don't use the spreadsheet program much, but if I did any business things with my computer I know I would. Also, I'm certain in the future I will be using the spreadsheet program much more as I come into a bit more responsibility after college and grad school.

I also never use evolution, I'm a web-mail person... so yeah. But many people do use evolution, so I think removing a mail client is also foolish.

These particular programs are the soul of a computer for users, email and word processing. The interwebs are mostly for funzies, so a web broswer comes 2nd to an office suite.

Superkoop said: Seriously, some people can consider removing the office suite?

As someone who uses his computer to work with, it's a foolish idea to remove the word processor, or presentation. Without a word processor, all a computer is good for is graphics and interwebs...and the majority of people I know that use their computer for a purpose, use it for writing things...

Admittedly, I personally don't use the spreadsheet program much, but if I did any business things with my computer I know I would. Also, I'm certain in the future I will be using the spreadsheet program much more as I come into a bit more responsibility after college and grad school.

I also never use evolution, I'm a web-mail person... so yeah. But many people do use evolution, so I think removing a mail client is also foolish.

These particular programs are the soul of a computer for users, email and word processing. The interwebs are mostly for funzies, so a web broswer comes 2nd to an office suite. Well, while I agree with you completely, let us be fair.

If all you do is surf for porn you have no need for an office suite or an integrated scheduling and email client.

ranch hand said: Well, while I agree with you completely, let us be fair.

If all you do is surf for porn you have no need for an office suite or an integrated scheduling and email client.

Is chromium a better browser to surf for porn? =p

Beats me. I do not use much stuff from the folks at google. Just don't like some of their policies.

I guess the thing to do is try it and see.

LKjell said: Is chromium a better browser to surf for porn? =p

I would say to make sure you have a good flash blocker. A good use for FF with NoScript.

I reckon it's time to let this one go. Thread closed.