Suggestions for the Ubuntu 11.04 Installer

I experienced that many users, who have just come to Linux have the same questions like "what is a kernel?", "Whats a distribution", "What do i need a desktop environment for?" and so on.

I think that it would be useful not only to present some features while installing, but also give the user a comprehension of how Linux works and how he can participate.

Maybe it would be useful to add some slides like these: [SIZE=4] What is Ubuntu?[/SIZE] -Its an open source OS, everyone can get a "view behind the scenes" -Its based on the Linux kernel, the "core" -Desktop environments make you able to have a graphical interface at all -A distribution like Ubuntu consists of the kernel, a desktop environment, a selection of applications and some pre-sets [SIZE=4] [/SIZE][SIZE=4]How to install Software?[/SIZE] -You can find over 30.000 applications in the software-centre -Many of them have star-rating and reviews (By december 2010) -You can add other software sources, so-called repositories -Alternatively you can install single packages by hand

[SIZE=4]Who is behind Ubuntu? [SIZE=1]-Ubuntu is the work of a huge community spread all over the world -Get support online, for example in forums like ubuntuforums.org -Everyone can contribute to the project [/SIZE][/SIZE]-Get involved and help improving Ubuntu by reporting bug, requesting features, sharing ideas or just spreading Ubuntu

it has certainly to be phrased a bit differently, but I think that would make the getting in easier and provides a better user experience

Do you think the same way?

toxicbits

I don't think the average user that Ubuntu aims should know what a kernel is neither what a DE is.

Ya that's right. Better not to confuse users with jargons while installing when he/she have make up his/her mind to use linux for the first time.

And as regarding for newbies these information are in forum, #ubuntu members are really helpfull(without getting irritated on newbies), and About Ubuntu reveals every information that a newbie may ask for.

Speed_arg said: I don't think the average user that Ubuntu aims should know what a kernel is neither what a DE is.

Its not as if Ubuntu or even linux came preinstalled on every computer , or lets face the truth , even very many . If someone sees the Ubuntu installer it is because they were curious enough to seek out the ISO and d/l and burn the image , that implies a certain level of curiosity and motivation . So yes they might like to know a bit about what they are about to install .

ronacc said: Its not as if Ubuntu or even linux came preinstalled on every computer , or lets face the truth , even very many . If someone sees the Ubuntu installer it is because they were curious enough to seek out the ISO and d/l and burn the image , that implies a certain level of curiosity and motivation . So yes they might like to know a bit about what they are about to install .

Yup and it would be of more use than the silly stuff on that slide show now.

It would be a shame if folks actually knew something about the technology that they are using. It really should be remembered that technology is a a tool only if you have some understanding of it. If you do not then it is not a tool it is witchcraft.

ronacc said: Its not as if Ubuntu or even linux came preinstalled on every computer , or lets face the truth , even very many . If someone sees the Ubuntu installer it is because they were curious enough to seek out the ISO and d/l and burn the image , that implies a certain level of curiosity and motivation . So yes they might like to know a bit about what they are about to install .

If they are curious then they can google it.

ranch hand said: Yup and it would be of more use than the silly stuff on that slide show now.

It would be a shame if folks actually knew something about the technology that they are using. It really should be remembered that technology is a a tool only if you have some understanding of it. If you do not then it is not a tool it is witchcraft.

Unfortunately for the average computer user, no matter what OS they use, it is considered witchcraft. Most of them don't care, or even want to know what is under the hood, as long as they can log onto Facebook, send pictures via email, play games or surf the internet.

in my experience it is not so much that they do not wish to know but that the "Illuminati" have worked hard to make it seem obscure and arcane ( yes I know that's a redundancy ) in order to enhance their own importance .

I think that someone who really just wants to use facebook, check his email or type some stuff wouldn't get in touch with Linux and the principle of being open should be applied just from the beginning. Of course it shouldn't be presented too complicated but nonetheless provide basic knowledge so that Ubuntu is a tool, which they understand.

Toxicbits said: I think that someone who really just wants to use facebook, check his email or type some stuff wouldn't get in touch with Linux and the principle of being open should be applied just from the beginning.

Of course it shouldn't be presented too complicated but nonetheless provide basic knowledge so that Ubuntu is a tool, which they understand.

Those are the people Ubuntu wants. Well not only them but the point is that the system should be simple enough so even computer illiterate people can run it without much problems.

But how would they get to know Linux? By buying a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled or someone who suggests it to them?

Would introducing them into the system be so bad? If the first problems or errors occured to them they had to dive into it anyway.

zekopeko said: Those are the people Ubuntu wants. Well not only them but the point is that the system should be simple enough so even computer illiterate people can run it without much problems.

Exactlty. Bug #1 was/is Windows.

Toxicbits said: But how would they get to know Linux? By buying a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled or someone who suggests it to them?

Would introducing them into the system be so bad? If the first problems or errors occured to them they had to dive into it anyway.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Average users don't care about the underlying stuff. Linux, Darwin or NT kernel, it's all the same for average users.

The only thing average users want is for stuff to work and not be confusing so they can do their work or enjoy a movie. Ideally there should be no errors but since it's not a perfect world if there are errors they should provide simple to-the-point information and direct the user how to fix it with minimal amount of clicks and confusion.

zekopeko said: I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Average users don't care about the underlying stuff. Linux, Darwin or NT kernel, it's all the same for average users.

The only thing average users want is for stuff to work and not be confusing so they can do their work or enjoy a movie. Ideally there should be no errors but since it's not a perfect world if there are errors they should provide simple to-the-point information and direct the user how to fix it with minimal amount of clicks and confusion. I really, really hope that you are not giving the "average user" enough credit. If you are it is a sorry state that the human race has gotten into.

ranch hand said: I really, really hope that you are not giving the "average user" enough credit. If you are it is a sorry state that the human race has gotten into.

I am in no way implying that the "average user" is stupid as you suggest but that they have different priorities. It's this that you continue to not understand. People generally have more important things to do then learn how their OS is glued together.

If I had to understand, in depth, every single thing I interact with I could spend the rest of my life simply reading about stuff never to leave my home.

zekopeko said: I am in no way implying that the "average user" is stupid as you suggest but that they have different priorities. It's this that you continue to not understand. People generally have more important things to do then learn how their OS is glued together.

If I had to understand, in depth, every single thing I interact with I could spend the rest of my life simply reading about stuff never to leave my home.

Who said anything about "understand in depth " ? There is a vast range of knowledge about any subject from total ignorance to PHD . Do I need to go to 8 years of medical school to know the difference between a virus and a bacteria ? I think not , is it germane to my day to day life ? probably not . If I become sick I can just visit the local wizard ( also known as an MD ) , let him mumble a few magic incantations ( like rhino virus ) and tell me to take this magic potion acetalsalisylic acid 3 times a day and lay on my back and stare at the ceiling for 3 days and I will be well . No it really doesn't mater if I know that it isn't "magic " . Humans are a naturally curious species otherwise we would still be in trees picking fleas off each other . Unfortunately attitudes like yours manage to kill off most of that curiosity before a child reaches puberty , great work keep it up .

No one has suggested that we provide a complete course in computer science , only a few words of information , yet the very idea that we might divulge anything at all to the great unwashed seems to fill you with horror .

ronacc said: Who said anything about "understand in depth " ? There is a vast range of knowledge about any subject from total ignorance to PHD . Do I need to go to 8 years of medical school to know the difference between a virus and a bacteria ? I think not , is it germane to my day to day life ? probably not . If I become sick I can just visit the local wizard ( also known as an MD ) , let him mumble a few magic incantations ( like rhino virus ) and tell me to take this magic potion acetalsalisylic acid 3 times a day and lay on my back and stare at the ceiling for 3 days and I will be well . No it really doesn't mater if I know that it isn't "magic " . Humans are a naturally curious species otherwise we would still be in trees picking fleas off each other . Unfortunately attitudes like yours manage to kill off most of that curiosity before a child reaches puberty , great work keep it up .

No one has suggested that we provide a complete course in computer science , only a few words of information , yet the very idea that we might divulge anything at all to the great unwashed seems to fill you with horror . The best and funnest comment I've read in a while now. I agree with RH about at least some relevant info on that dog & pony slide show.

The philosophy has always been to provide interested people with the tools to learn more, without hitting everyone else over the head with them. That is why there is a note about ubuntu.com/community in the end; it is a much better starting point for that stuff than a time-limited presentation with about 100 words per concept.

This is somewhat of a balancing act. If someone sees technical stuff that they don't need or want to learn, they may assume it's all like that and ignore the rest. Not the end of the world, but it can definitely lower somebody's confidence going in to seriously using Ubuntu for what may be the first time.

That last slide could do with some revision, so maybe we can direct people in better or cleverer ways. There is an effort this cycle to improve the ubuntu.com/community landing page (sorry, on my phone so I can't link you to the blueprint), as well as a nice guide for interested developers. Maybe there is a way your thoughts can work over there.

So we all have a common reference, here is the slideshow for Maverick: http://people.ubuntu.com/~dylanmccall/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/preview/

As always you miss the point.

ronacc said: Who said anything about "understand in depth " ? There is a vast range of knowledge about any subject from total ignorance to PHD . Do I need to go to 8 years of medical school to know the difference between a virus and a bacteria ? I think not , is it germane to my day to day life ? probably not . If I become sick I can just visit the local wizard ( also known as an MD ) , let him mumble a few magic incantations ( like rhino virus ) and tell me to take this magic potion acetalsalisylic acid 3 times a day and lay on my back and stare at the ceiling for 3 days and I will be well . No it really doesn't mater if I know that it isn't "magic " . Humans are a naturally curious species otherwise we would still be in trees picking fleas off each other .

I think you are the only one that thinks removing frivolous (for 99% of users) information is tantamount to advocating the death of curiosity.

Is removing the mention of Linux kernel going to somehow limit people's curiosity? If they are curious this will somehow severely impact their ability to google for "what is ubuntu"? Really?

Unfortunately attitudes like yours manage to kill off most of that curiosity before a child reaches puberty , great work keep it up .

This was low even for you.

No one has suggested that we provide a complete course in computer science , only a few words of information , yet the very idea that we might divulge anything at all to the great unwashed seems to fill you with horror .

Few words of completely unnecessary information for 99% of users. Everything they want to know is a google search way. There are links to various Ubuntu resources where questions can be asked and answered (this forums, askubuntu, IRC, wiki, mailing lists etc.).

zekopeko said:

Few words of completely unnecessary information for 99% of users. Everything they want to know is a google search way. There are links to various Ubuntu resources where questions can be asked and answered (this forums, askubuntu, IRC, wiki, mailing lists etc.).

and the slideshow isn't frivolous how ? since it only presents information that they can find out for themselves ( and without even using google ) as soon as the boot ubuntu .

ronacc said: and the slideshow isn't frivolous how ? since it only presents information that they can find out for themselves ( and without even using google ) as soon as the boot ubuntu .

Because it's showing them things they care about. They don't interact with the kernel directly but with Banshee and Gwibber and Totem and OO.org and ... you get the point. There is limited amount of space on the slideshow so it's important to now waste it on information 99% of people are going to read and discard as irrelevant.

because they do care about media players and web apps does not automatically mean they care about nothing else . But that aside there is more than enough "white space" in the slideshow to include the meager information that toxicbits suggested without leaving out a single thing that is currently there or adding more that a few bytes to the size , ascii text doesn't take up much room .

ronacc said: because they do care about media players and web apps does not automatically mean they care about nothing else . But that aside there is more than enough "white space" in the slideshow to include the meager information that toxicbits suggested without leaving out a single thing that is currently there or adding more that a few bytes to the size , ascii text doesn't take up much room .

ascii text takes up *tons* of room. Not in disk space, but in head space. If we throw War and Peace at the user here, it will fit just fine on the disk but it isn't going to be read and it will limit the possibility of anything after it being read as well.

That is why I keep making this sound complicated :)

Having said that, I do appreciate that your suggested additions are quite succinct, Toxicbits. Here is that blueprint I mentioned. The goal is to (vastly) improve ubuntu.com/developer, and there is a link to the current draft of the introduction in the whiteboard. An introduction to the various components on the desktop could fit well somewhere nearby, if that's the sort of thing you are thinking of.

I think that toxicbits suggestions could be accommodated in a very few lines of text , which spread appropriately across the several screens of the slideshow would hardly amount to intolerable clutter IMHO . For instance I believe that the 1st and 3rd block of information could be handled in about 4 short sentences on the first screen and the part about software in another couple on the customize ubuntu screen , I don't think anyone has suggested that it has to be a doctoral dissertation .

Why teach them how an engine works if they don't know how to drive the car?

First teach them how to use the OS, most people don't care about what's under the hood at all. If they care, they will google it.

Knowing how the kernel works won't improve their user experience, but knowing how to play a DVD will.

ronacc said: I think that toxicbits suggestions could be accommodated in a very few lines of text , which spread appropriately across the several screens of the slideshow would hardly amount to intolerable clutter IMHO . For instance I believe that the 1st and 3rd block of information could be handled in about 4 short sentences on the first screen and the part about software in another couple on the customize ubuntu screen , I don't think anyone has suggested that it has to be a doctoral dissertation .

We don't need to shove that information in users' faces. Knowing that Ubuntu is made of the kernel, bunch of command line tools, a desktop environment and applications does nothing to improve their user experience. It's only confusing them for virtually no added benefit.

Empowering users shouldn't be done via forced training course but by providing entry points for exploration IF they are interested.

Its not about knowing how the "engine" works but that there is one at all

zekopeko said: We don't need to shove that information in users' faces. Knowing that Ubuntu is made of the kernel, bunch of command line tools, a desktop environment and applications does nothing to improve their user experience. It's only confusing them for virtually no added benefit.

Empowering users shouldn't be done via forced training course but by providing entry points for exploration IF they are interested.

You sure do love to twist what people say . I'll let toxicbits speak for himself , but I specifically said that I wasn't proposing a full course in computer science , just a very few short sentences along side of the "see we are just like windows , we've got facebook and twitter too" stuff . If you consider that shoving it in thier faces then you have a very warped viewpoint .

Toxicbits said: Its not about knowing how the "engine" works but that there is one at all

Pointing to the existence of the engine isn't relevant to solving Bug #1. The two top OS' by market share don't point out their underpinnings in their installers or other prominent places, and yet people have no problem finding the information on their architecture.

ronacc said: You sure do love to twist what people say . I'll let toxicbits speak for himself , but I specifically said that I wasn't proposing a full course in computer science , just a very few short sentences along side of the "see we are just like windows , we've got facebook and twitter too" stuff . If you consider that shoving it in thier faces then you have a very warped viewpoint .

Hahaha! Aren't you a little hypocrite. You continually try and paint me as someone that thinks average users are stupid.

When you learn math the teacher doesn't start with derivations and integrals but with addition and subtraction. You might not think of desktop environments, the kernel , X or libraries as advanced concepts but they are for somebody whose general interest in computers is only using it as a tool to access their family photos or chatting with their friends while browsing the net.

Please keep this civil, and on topic.

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

            ||-------------------------------?-------------------------------||
No information whatsoever                                          Everything under the sun
           (iPad)                                                    (Linux From Scratch)

You all need to figure out where on this slider you're talking about before you discuss the pros/cons of putting it in the installer

Steve Jobs gave you all the information you need to know about the Ipad , " It's Magical " .:D

zekopeko said: Hahaha! Aren't you a little hypocrite. You continually try and paint me as someone that thinks average users are stupid.

When you learn math the teacher doesn't start with derivations and integrals but with addition and subtraction. You might not think of desktop environments, the kernel , X or libraries as advanced concepts but they are for somebody whose general interest in computers is only using it as a tool to access their family photos or chatting with their friends while browsing the net. This could be because you insist on treating the "average user" as an idiot.

Where, exactly, do you get this 99% crap about users? I know for certain that folks are not that similar. Gods above and below you must live in a terribly boring community.

ranch hand said: This could be because you insist on treating the "average user" as an idiot.

Making things simple for the majority of use cases isn't treating users as "idiots". It's quite the irony that you, who always complain of Ubuntu being "dumbed down" think I'm treating the users as idiots when it is blatantly obvious you think the "average user" is an ignorant person and should be buried under technical terms as much as possible to force them to learn while the only thing they want to do is write a report or watch youtube videos.

Where, exactly, do you get this 99% crap about users? I know for certain that folks are not that similar. Gods above and below you must live in a terribly boring community.

Most people aren't technically inclined to learn about something that they consider only a tool that is meant to make their lives easier. When you want to write an essay you don't need to know how something is built and glued together only how it works for the task at hand. That part (the task at hand) needs to be simple and easy to use. Something you like to call "dumbing down". The rest of us call it usability.

You casually assume that YOUR personal wishes represent the desires of " the rest of us " RH and I and at least some others disagree with you assumption .

1. If you check download files from internet it takes forever and there is nothing to see whats going on.

1. Loads of softwares are installed by default in Ubuntu that i do not use. They are linked to Ubuntu-desktop so can't be clean removed. A simple interface which gives you choice of what default software you want to use just links would do fine. And can be installed right away from internet - install Chromium, Banshee, VLC, Gimp, Picasa and remove Ubuntu-games, shotwell, totem movie player, rhythmbox, ubuntuone, evolution, etc.

ronacc said: You casually assume that YOUR personal wishes represent the desires of " the rest of us " RH and I and at least some others disagree with you assumption .Aren't you and RH assuming the opposite though?

soham_1207 said:

1. If you check download files from internet it takes forever and there is nothing to see whats going on.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD

1. Loads of softwares are installed by default in Ubuntu that i do not use. They are linked to Ubuntu-desktop so can't be clean removed. A simple interface which gives you choice of what default software you want to use just links would do fine. And can be installed right away from internet - install Chromium, Banshee, VLC, Gimp, Picasa and remove Ubuntu-games, shotwell, totem movie player, rhythmbox, ubuntuone, evolution, etc.It's called the Minimal CD Image

Having it on the 'default' CD will not happen. It adds an extra step for the user and the goal is to make the installation as simple as possible.

Merk42 said: Aren't you and RH assuming the opposite though?

I do not see where either RH or I have claimed to speak for anyone other than ourselves much less 99% .

Perhaps we do represent a minority of users , isn't Ubuntu supposed to have something for everyone ? or is the new mantra "conform or go to hades " ?

ronacc said: I do not see where either RH or I have claimed to speak for anyone other than ourselves much less 99% .

Again, you are missing the point. You can't go an ask every single user what would they like in Ubuntu. It's not feasible. You have to make the distro so that it covers the most common use cases for the largest portion of users. Web browser? Check. E-Mail Client? Check. Office suite? Check. Music player? Check. Video player? Check. A simple video editor? Check. IM client? Check.

All other major OSs have those for a reason.

Perhaps we do represent a minority of users , isn't Ubuntu supposed to have something for everyone ? or is the new mantra "conform or go to hades " ?

Ubuntu is supposed to have something for everyone like every other OS. But you can't have it all on the default CD. The current mantra is "have a really good set of defaults but make it easy for users to craft their own experience".

Do understand that there are a number of applications on Ubuntu CD that I don't use. However I don't want them removed because I know they cover use cases that are far more common for the majority of users even though they aren't common for me.

To have a good out of the box experience you need to have a simple, intuitive base experience. That is what USC and all the usability and design work is for. But that also includes not bombarding the users with technical terms since then usability suffers.

Repeating what I said before and you ignored: if you want people to learn math (if they are interested to do so) you don't start with derivations and integrals but with apples and oranges, addition and subtraction.

If you can't keep this thread on topic, it will be closed. Please keep personalities out of it.

I think that the point of Ubuntu is to offer an operating system that fits the usage scenarios of all users. By no means should it hide any information available on it, but neither should it attempt to force its users to become any more familiar with its inner workings than they need to be. If a user simply wants an OS to browse the web and send email with, and is perfectly fine with a "magic box" running underneath, than we should be sure that the magic box works without tinkering. If, however, the user is interested in digging a bit deeper into how it works, I believe we should offer some easy path to garner this information-don't force the user to read, but make the option known. Maybe an OO document "Ubuntu Linux for the curious" placed in a documentation directory with a pointer to it during the installer. A user should be able to use Ubuntu comfortably, whether they're trying it out as a new thing they're interested in learning in depth about or if they just want fast web browser for their netbook.

I will not waste space by quoting your post since it is just a few above . There are also programs on the install CD that I do not use but neither I or the OP asked for anything to be removed so please do not imply that . One of the simple requests that the OP made was that people be made aware of the vast amount of additional software available beyond what is on the install CD .

from the OP

How to install Software?

-You can find over 30.000 applications in the software-centre -Many of them have star-rating and reviews (By december 2010) -You can add other software sources, so-called repositories -Alternatively you can install single packages by hand

as you indicate we should " make it easy for users to craft their own experience". I hardly see this request as "frivolous information". Personally I would add to that , those applications that come from the Ubuntu repos are free to use and free of virus and malware,which would be good news to someone coming from an MS background .

regarding the " math analogy" I did not ignore it I merely did not reply to it , so since you see fit to repeat it here is my reply . My 1st grade teacher did not start us off on derivatives and integrals , she ( it was a she ) also did not suppress the idea that there might be something beyond addition and subtraction still to be learned .

Merk42 said: Aren't you and RH assuming the opposite though?

It's called the Minimal CD Image https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD

Having it on the 'default' CD will not happen. It adds an extra step for the user and the goal is to make the installation as simple as possible.

Yeah understandable adding an option of advanced installation will be useful for both basic users and those who want to do a little customization. Ofcourse a little script can be written to do it.

Why are some of these applications are permanently tied to ubuntu-desktop? Why are these not easily uninstallable.

ronacc said: I will not waste space by quoting your post since it is just a few above . There are also programs on the install CD that I do not use but neither I or the OP asked for anything to be removed so please do not imply that . One of the simple requests that the OP made was that people be made aware of the vast amount of additional software available beyond what is on the install CD .

That wasn't the contentious point. This was:

What is Ubuntu?

-Its an open source OS, everyone can get a "view behind the scenes" -Its based on the Linux kernel, the "core" -Desktop environments make you able to have a graphical interface at all -A distribution like Ubuntu consists of the kernel, a desktop environment, a selection of applications and some pre-sets

This part should be re-worded and merged in the support/contribute section.

as you indicate we should " make it easy for users to craft their own experience". I hardly see this request as "frivolous information". Personally I would add to that , those applications that come from the Ubuntu repos are free to use and free of virus and malware,which would be good news to someone coming from an MS background .

Ubuntu Software Center is already mentioned in the slideshow. It's only going to get more prominent as it matures.

regarding the " math analogy" I did not ignore it I merely did not reply to it , so since you see fit to repeat it here is my reply . My 1st grade teacher did not start us off on derivatives and integrals , she ( it was a she ) also did not suppress the idea that there might be something beyond addition and subtraction still to be learned .

I doubt your 1st grade teacher talked to you about advanced math.

To get back on topic. The most important part of the installer that needs improvement is the partitioning part. That parts needs to be bulletproof and simple, simple, simple. That includes upgrading/replacing the old Ubuntu version with the new.

zekopeko said:

I doubt your 1st grade teacher talked to you about advanced math.

To get back on topic. The most important part of the installer that needs improvement is the partitioning part. That parts needs to be bulletproof and simple, simple, simple. That includes upgrading/replacing the old Ubuntu version with the new.

In 1st grade multiplication and division were advanced math :lolflag:

And at last something we can agree on , yes the partitioner needs a lot of love .

ronacc said: And at last something we can agree on , yes the partitioner needs a lot of love .

OK, so what can we do here? I think that we should define some use cases, reasonably conclude which ones are the most common and leave the rest to the Advanced partitioning button.

sounds good to me make it simple but with the advanced option , also I would like to see some consistency in the order the drives are reported and the way they are designated . That has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time .

+1

People generally have more important things to do then learn how their OS is glued together.

Not every one is a geek and for geeks to assume everyone should be like them is both presumptuous and absurd. Why should anyone who does not know or care to know about computers be forced to learn. The computer has become an appliance and that is fine and dandy. This keeps the geeks and non-geeks happy and provides for a service market.

As for the topic, I say leave it alone already. Stop fixing what ain't broke. The installer works, looks good, and gets the job done. Make the partitioning window resizable and leave it the heck alone.

ezsit said: +1

Not every one is a geek and for geeks to assume everyone should be like them is both presumptuous and absurd. Why should anyone who does not know or care to know about computers be forced to learn. The computer has become an appliance and that is fine and dandy. This keeps the geeks and non-geeks happy and provides for a service market.

As for the topic, I say leave it alone already. Stop fixing what ain't broke. The installer works, looks good, and gets the job done. Make the partitioning window resizable and leave it the heck alone. Yes, let's leave the installer alone. It's only the biggest hurdle for new users to Ubuntu, and we don't care about those guys. ](*,)

I'd agree with you if the current installer was trouble-free, but it really isn't. It's the first iteration of a new design direction, and there have been quite a few complaints about it.

for the actual installation of the OS the installer works fine it is the partitioning section that is a mess , It manages to be confusing to both newbies and old hands . I don't think anyone will disagree with making the window resizeable but more than that is needed . What zekopeko is proposing is that we identify the common scenarios that the partitioner will encounter and provide for a clear and logical way of handling those . I think that is a good way to approach the needed changes .

I think the scenarios can be grouped into 3 or 4 general categories .

1. single drive , Windows only installed , with or without a hidden recovery partition , with or without unallocated space .

1. multiple drives , layout as above .

1. multiple drives , multiple OS's installed , with or without unallocated space .

1. clean box no OS installed .

In any of the first 3 , if the partitioner is going to erase any OS the last step before executing the changes should be a warning screen identifying what OS is to be erased and asking for confirmation .An install to unallocated space can be handled as # 4 with the additional step of where ( or if ) to install grub .

NCLI said: Yes, let's leave the installer alone. It's only the biggest hurdle for new users to Ubuntu, and we don't care about those guys. ](*,)

The only way to completely remove that hurdle is to have Ubuntu preinstalled on a users computer. The Windows installed could be an absolute mess (it's not) but it wouldn't matter since the vast majority of users don't have to use it.

Merk42 said: The only way to completely remove that hurdle is to have Ubuntu preinstalled on a users computer.

The Windows installed could be an absolute mess (it's not) but it wouldn't matter since the vast majority of users don't have to use it. The end goal is definitely to have Ubuntu pre-installed on computers available for purchase from your local computer store, but until the day when the hurdle disappears, we'll have to keep making it smaller.

We may not be able to completely eliminate the hurdle but I'm sure we can " lower the bar" . try to think like a complete newbie to linux who knows only Windows , what the H is this DH0,1 ... SDb,3 stuff ??? do I even have those ? and what do they mean by partition anyway ? ( remember his box CAME with Windows pre- installed ), he has probably never partitioned a drive in his(her) life .

What zekopeko is proposing is that we identify the common scenarios that the partitioner will encounter and provide for a clear and logical way of handling those .

The partitioner is not broke or faulty, it creates and deletes and alters partitions just fine. I do not see anything inherently broken with the installer and the partitioner in particular.

What is it not able to do? Install to a fully encrypted disk? There is a feature worth adding, I guess. I've never needed it, but some might. Maybe deal with LVM, yet another thing I haven't used, but might be useful to others. So, fully encrypted disks and LVM in the graphical installer. If these capabilities are already present, please forgive my ignorance.

Otherwise, the partitioner is fine the way it is. If people do not know about partitioning a drive for multiple operating systems, the install sequence while installing any Linux system is NOT the place to teach these lessons. Anybody who does not KNOW what they are doing when partitioning a drive should NOT be doing during their first install attempt. That is just plain stupid, to expect of an installer and stupid to advise a newbie.

Newbies SHOULD be pointed to appropriate references that explain hard drive partitions, file systems, and booting. AFTER the newbie does some homework, then they can experiment. To suggest that a total newbie "jump in" and the installer will teach them is ridiculous.

I can not believe some people here think that the Ubuntu installer is the right place to teach someone how to partition a disk. If a new user walks into the partitioner not knowing what they are doing, no amount of hand-holding is going to save them from almost certain disaster. If a new user makes it through without accidentally wiping their drive or individual partitions, it was sheer dumb luck that intervened and not some magical partitioner that saved the day.

It's only the biggest hurdle for new users to Ubuntu, and we don't care about those guys.

Of course its the biggest hurdle. Installing any operating system SHOULD be enough of a hurdle that the truly ignorant or technically challenged people should stay away. Installing operating systems should never be a job for the true neophyte.

Anybody that can't partition a drive won't have any idea what LVM is. The Live CD does have an option to encrypt the home directory during the installation process, Full disk encryption and LVM are available on the alternate install CD.

ezsit said: The partitioner is not broke or faulty, it creates and deletes and alters partitions just fine. I do not see anything inherently broken with the installer and the partitioner in particular.

What is it not able to do? Install to a fully encrypted disk? There is a feature worth adding, I guess. I've never needed it, but some might. Maybe deal with LVM, yet another thing I haven't used, but might be useful to others. So, fully encrypted disks and LVM in the graphical installer. If these capabilities are already present, please forgive my ignorance.

Otherwise, the partitioner is fine the way it is. If people do not know about partitioning a drive for multiple operating systems, the install sequence while installing any Linux system is NOT the place to teach these lessons. Anybody who does not KNOW what they are doing when partitioning a drive should NOT be doing during their first install attempt. That is just plain stupid, to expect of an installer and stupid to advise a newbie.

Newbies SHOULD be pointed to appropriate references that explain hard drive partitions, file systems, and booting. AFTER the newbie does some homework, then they can experiment. To suggest that a total newbie "jump in" and the installer will teach them is ridiculous.

I can not believe some people here think that the Ubuntu installer is the right place to teach someone how to partition a disk. If a new user walks into the partitioner not knowing what they are doing, no amount of hand-holding is going to save them from almost certain disaster. If a new user makes it through without accidentally wiping their drive or individual partitions, it was sheer dumb luck that intervened and not some magical partitioner that saved the day.

Of course its the biggest hurdle. Installing any operating system SHOULD be enough of a hurdle that the truly ignorant or technically challenged people should stay away. Installing operating systems should never be a job for the true neophyte.

I must disagree, you might find my work here interesting:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1622388

Particularly here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10145206&postcount=15

And the new ubiquity did away with the option to "install to largest continuous free space" :(

Since both Vista and Win7 have their own partitioning tools it was very easy to shrink those existing OS's, then just select that option, like this:

http://apcmag.com/how_to_dualboot_vista_with_linux_vista_installed_first.htm?page=1

I have installed every version of DOS from version 5 on up, every version of Windows from 3.0 on up, OS/2 WARP, BeOS 4.5 and 5.0, and Linuxes and BSDs from about 1995 to the present.

OS/2 was the first operating system I dual booted with Windows and that is where I cut my teeth and learned about partitioning, boot managers, file systems, and hardware compatibility differences between operating systems. I learned the hard way, by experimenting and losing data from time to time. It was worth wile experience. Never once did I blame the installer (except SuSE 4.3 where the SAX setup of the X server was completely in German even though I selected English as the language - and I still managed to get a working X server just knowing the meaning of nein and ja).

Linux installers these days are a cake wake compared to back then and hardware compatibility and auto detection make even the newbie almost guaranteed to have a successful installation, barring bugs and X incompatibilities.

Maybe I'm not that forgiving for newbies, but my perception is that installers have matured so much, that devs should be spending time elsewhere, like with X, printing, scanning, video and audio capture and editing, and other stuff.

You admit you learned the "hard way" . The installer and specifically the partitioner by their very nature hold the potential for damaging a previously installed system . The aim is to make it as easy as possible for a complete newbie to do a successful install of ubuntu while leaving an existing system intact if that is what the newbie wants . Destroying their windows install and all of their data is unlikely to impress them favorably .