Archived thread 354827 from Ireland Team - Ireland. Markdown source: Ireland_Team_-_Ireland/thread_354827_gNewSense.md
As you may know, gNewSense is a new gnu/linux distro based on ubuntu dapper with all the non-free (free as in freedom) blobs removed. It was started by two Irish guys and is gradually building a community of like minded users.
I love ubuntu, but I notice a gradual move towards reliance of non-free software in many distros (i may be wrong but i believe feisty will use proprietary graphics drivers).
I personally will be using and supporting gNewSense and just wanted to bring your attention to it.
The non-free stuff in Ubuntu is a temporary "hack" if you will. Once the functionality comes out with something free, the non-free stuff will be swapped out. It doesn't represent a destination change, just an obstacle avoidance detour. With Vista now out, people are thinking about their options. Making ubuntu "just work" right now is important to try and gain those users trying out their options. It is hard to sway people when their stuff doesn't work with your distro.
That at least is what is being claimed, and for now I believe it. Time will of course bear out the truth of it. In the mean time, having projects like gNewSense is a good idea, it provides a viable solution to those wanting and being able to use a 100% free solution now. And I think it helps keep pressure on the decision makers to keep freedom in mind.
I agree that having ubuntu "just work" is important. With the travesty that is Vista, ubuntu really is an obvious choice for people who want to escape the MS prison and making the changeover for them as seamless as possible is clearly a priority. Personally, my opinions coincide with the gnu philosophy but I can understand how some are put off by "holier than thou" free s/w zealots. If using non-free s/w _temporarily_ as a hack is necessary, then fair enough, but I would hope that it is very much temporary!!
Without the GPL the gnu/linux community would likely not exist and I think that it is important that users of the OS are at least aware of it and hopefully support it (which is why I will always call it gnu/linux). Of course, one is free to use un-free s/w but it must always be a choice that the user can make for him/herself.
Is the user making a choice when non-free software is installed without the user being aware of it?
Also wanted to mention that gnewsense works great on all the machines I own....no decrease in functionality for me.
deanlinkous said: Is the user making a choice when non-free software is installed without the user being aware of it?
About as much choice as they get in any other piece of software that is installed during a new install. That is with the desktop install. I have not tried the alternate install, so there might be more choice in what get installed using that method, but I am just guessing.
Also wanted to mention that gnewsense works great on all the machines I own....no decrease in functionality for me.
Sweet! I have just assumed that it wouldn't work on my laptop, but I will download it and give it a try to know for sure.
Shay Stephens said: About as much choice as they get in any other piece of software that is installed during a new install.
Considering this http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy It seems misleading to make so much non-free software so easily available. Is it just me?
deanlinkous said: Considering this
http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy It seems misleading to make so much non-free software so easily available. Is it just me?
No, you're not alone. Lot's of people seem to be annoyed, that Mark is not standing by his word..
He promised a "free Ubuntu" to RMS, but today the say, that it is just no doable technically. ^^
lee797 said: As you may know, gNewSense is a new gnu/linux distro based on ubuntu dapper with all the non-free (free as in freedom) blobs removed.
It was started by two Irish guys and is gradually building a community of like minded users.
I love ubuntu, but I notice a gradual move towards reliance of non-free software in many distros (i may be wrong but i believe feisty will use proprietary graphics drivers).
I personally will be using and supporting gNewSense and just wanted to bring your attention to it.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/
So does gNewSense work for you? I guess a system with not a single proprietary thing on it should be hard to use. For example won't you hear any music which may be mp3 encoded? And I'm not letting you go with "I do not encode mp3 but ogg vorbis only.". I can understand that Mark decided reasonably, for the average user won't bother about copyright issues the least bit ("I uploaded loads of commerical video records onto Youtube - why the hell did they delete it.").
You wouldn't have to guess if you truly tried free software instead of some mix. Then at least you would KNOW exactly what free software provides and if your system is compatible....and whether your usage could be handled with free software.
oh and free software has mp3 covered just fine but it is a patent issue and up to you to decide if you can legally use it or not, but why bother when there is ogg. I am afraid I do not encode mp3 but ogg vorbis only! :D
I downloaded the live cd. Everything but networking worked for me. I have to try and find a wireless card that will work with it. It was the same for my desktop and laptop. So I am close :-)
wireless is a pita but it is not something I would trust to closed modules, of course I dont trust closed anything :D
I did some looking around and found this page on network cards from the FSF: http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/net/wireless/cards.html
I am going to see if I can find any of those locally and give it another shot.
I use the old orinoco gold wireless cards - just FYI
Watcht he versions numbers carefully for those on the FSF list.Someone reported they found one recently - see if I can find it.
I ordered the Asus WL-167g,
which according to the list on the FSF site (and the list where that came from) uses the RT2500 chipset (the one I need), and doesn't have other versions with different chipsets. Unfortunately, that's wrong; in fact it has four versions, two using that chipset, and the other two seemingly using the RT2571W chipset, which only works with the RT73 driver, which needs binary-only firmware to work.
P.S. If anyone has that card, or is thinking of getting one, if it has
the product ID '1706' or '1707' it uses the RT2500 chipset and should work out of the box with gNewSense,
I am a debian/ubuntu/gnewsense GNU/Linux user (I have all the three installed in separate partitions, using grub to boot them) and watching the evolution of all three. We should never forget the principles of GNU and the FSF. We users of debian-based distros are all indebted to debian developers. Ubuntu has brought much good to the GNU/linux community which have been useful to all, especially to debian-based distros. Gnewsense is a great experiment in free software. I would like debian and/or ubuntu to make clear to the user if he is or not using non-free software, and always make it optional.
pvdg said: I would like debian and/or ubuntu to make clear to the user if he is or not using non-free software, and always make it optional.
I think it is pretty clear at the moment. But that will change with Feisty when they integrate binary drivers by default.
Also Feisty+1 will include Linspires Click'n'Run.
Even if the client may be FLOSS itself (I dunno) it's aim is to run restricted software...
No good use from the "free" point of view... (Heard already of people ditching Ubuntu when Feisty+1 comes out, as that is too commercial and closed for them)
Feisty will NOT activate proprietary video drivers by default, although the reasons invoked are technical:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html
We have won a battle(?), but not the war (please don't take me literally!).
pvdg said: Feisty will NOT activate proprietary video drivers by default, although the reasons invoked are technical:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html
We have won a battle(?), but not the war (please don't take me literally!).
And this will get better with time too. As more projects start putting out free drivers and such, this will be less and less of a problem. We are just in an awkward stage right now where some things don't have the support we would like or need.
Keeping the pressure on is a good thing though :-)
Excuse my ignorance, as I have only really primarily been an Ubuntu user, but why start GNewsense? Why not contribute or port back Ubuntu stuff to Debian GNU/Linux? After all their is Debian Free Software Guidlines and all...
While I know a founder of gnewsense, Paul O'Malley, I fail to see what it can bring to the table, other than an "approved by FSF" badge. Maybe I am to much rooted in reality like Linus and Mark? I know freedoms are the most important thing about (X)/(K)Ubuntu, but I seriously think most people are barking up the wrong tree on how to approach this: userbase. Once we have the userbase, we can use the market force to switch to free software entirely. Plus it is only hardware support, which is vital to get people to switch. Developers pick the GPL so that their code is free to be used, wouldn't it be a shame to throw away all that because of one (perhaps broadcom?) wireless card that refused to work? I know binary blobs seem to be the curse of the devil, can and will break on kernel upgrades, but they are a sad reality unfortunately, idealism can't solve this yet I am afraid.
BTW, I am one of the biggest Free Software idealists out there, but this is a tangible problem someone needs to make decisions on, and I think Ubuntu is heading in the right direction in this regard. I was shocked to see the ignorance of people talk bad about CNR, I have used that extensively and with family members who are not technical at all, and it works, better than Add/Remove in my assessment
then I guess we can use the "market force" of windows to get rid of DRM? When you manage that feat let me know......
If a large userbase means that force can be leveraged then why arent we all on windows, and forcing micorosft to use ODF or to open-source their operating system or ....?
a large "market force" using proprietary simply shows that proprietary is the right way to do things, so why would a company change?
What is "switching" if you go from proprietary/free (windows/openoffice+gimp+more) to free/proprietary (ubuntu+binary drivers+proprietary software+more) seems less like switching and more like shuffling around to me. :D
Why come out with 7up when there is already coke & pepsi? Answer: Some people want something not provided by coke or pepsi.
I understand it. gNewSense offers what some really want. Totally 100% free software. And for those that can run such a system, they can be happy as a clam.
Ubuntu has 100% free as the ultimate goal, but to get there, it' using some non-free software for those who are unable to run 100% free system. It is an interim step. If it were not for this interim step, I would not be able to use linux 100%. I would instead have, like I have many time before in years past, had to try out the rainbow of distros, give up and wait a few more years until I found something that worked.
Ubuntu was the first distro that worked for me. It took a year, but I moved my Photography business from 100% windows based to 100% linux based. I am still using some windows based applications, but over time I hope to transition those to free software too. But where I can't, I will use commercial software. I will be happy to pay for it because it lets me get my work done. I believe CNR is going to be key in that regard giving vendors the ability to sell to me easily.
When I can use Gimp for decent text/page layout, I will be able to stop using Photoshop. As is, I am using Gimp for maybe 75% and Photoshop for the remaining 25% that Gimp can't do. If I had to only rely on Gimp, I would be in big trouble. So I wait and bide my time until Gimp improves.
And until something like ufraw makes some improvements in noise reduction and some other details, I will continue to to use bibble for raw editing and batch processing of photos.
On the bright side, K3b is all the burning software I need. No longer needing nero is a great thing. Thunderbird and openoffice, same thing, bye-bye ms office.
So it is a compromise right now in some things. But as improvements are made, I plan on switching as soon as it is practically possible. The hard part for me is already over. Now it comes down to fine tuning.
deanlinkous said: then I guess we can use the "market force" of windows to get rid of DRM? When you manage that feat let me know......
I don't know, Steve Jobs seems to be making some actual headway here. He has a market force for sure, and it seems to be attracting others to his side to call for an end to DRM. I think this has the best shot of anything right now.
Does he say it to mean it or does he say it to make the news, and to make users think he cares??? I honestly do not know, I have a guess which I admit is biased but when (if) he suceeds in getting rid of DRM then let me know and I will gladly stand corrected. :D
Of course some would say that apple only holds a small market share,popular in some of the markets, but still small so maybe that would prove that a small market share can accomplish something if it is simply popular? :D
I'm glad to see that this thread has created a bit of discussion about free software.
So does gNewSense work for you? I guess a system with not a single proprietary thing on it should be hard to use. For example won't you hear any music which may be mp3 encoded? And I'm not letting you go with "I do not encode mp3 but ogg vorbis only.". I can understand that Mark decided reasonably, for the average user won't bother about copyright issues the least bit Yeah gNewSense works great for me, I have it running on an old 1.2Ghz
desktop with an Audigy soundcard and a crappy Voodoo graphics card. I can honestly say that I use it more than my laptop with edgy installed. Regarding mp3 : well yeah I do listen to them but as you already know I can use free software to do it.
Unfortunately I too still have to use Windows, as my College is sitting firmly on Microsofts dick. It amazes me the amount of money they throw away on proprietary software. So I compromise because I want to finish my education, but on a personal level I will only support free software. I think gNewSense is a great idea and if another 10 totally free distros started tomorrow, I would think that that would be great too. The more freedom the better the way I see it.
Also Feisty+1 will include Linspires Click'n'Run.
Even if the client may be FLOSS itself (I dunno) it's aim is to run restricted software...
No good use from the "free" point of view... (Heard already of people ditching Ubuntu when Feisty+1 comes out, as that is too commercial and closed for them)
Click'n'Run is all open source, and most of the programs on it are also. Its just another interface to apt, which is superior (IMHO) to anything else I have seen. It lets you rate, comment, see screenshots. You need an account for it, but you can arrange software into an "aisle" (if you ever reinstall ubuntu, all software you arranged in that aisle can be one click installed [I have wanted to do this sooo many times, not just on my home pcs, but ones I am setting up for friends]). It will sync with the Ubuntu software repository and then people can contribute packages, it wll be v olunteer led and free. Their will be commercial software which Ubuntu hasn't really had and their will be the codecs. Apart from some commercial apps, their will be no more less free software then can be used on (X)(K)Ubuntu right now, so some of the talk about c'n'r is all fud. Linspire did an great service to get a legal codec license from MS (for the US anyway, see here), and now it'd like to share it free of charge.
Just to answer that, I have used Freespire as I stated above, and so has one of my relatives (almost totally computer illiterate 70yr. old) and he was able to install stuff no bother, when add/remove adept seems too complicated to him).
In a recent post, Mark Shuttleworth has announced that (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/95)
In addition to all of this, we have restarted the effort to produce a flavour of Ubuntu that includes no proprietary drivers or firmware at all. In fact, this flavour will take an ultra-conservative approach to all forms of content on the .iso, whether that be artistic or code. More on that initiative later.
It seems that gNewSense's approach is valuable after all. Does this mean that the only differences between gNewSense and the future gnubuntu, freebuntu or ... will be Firefox/Thunderbird and the use of Lauchpad? Will the two distros be direct "competitors"? Probably not. I don't think the first free Ubuntu will be based on Dapper, and gNewSense is, AFAIK, sticking to this LTS release.