beginners and feisty

it seems that a lot of beginners post threads about how such-and-such breaks in feisty. the last i heard, feisty is beta. therefore, i feel that only experienced users who are serious about *testing* or perhaps even *contributing* (i.e. - filing helpful bug reports), not "absolute beginners" who need a solid and dependable system, should be using feisty. in fact, if a beginner asked me which version he/she should pick, i would suggest dapper.

but dapper "just isn't cool" anymore.

either it is not clear to beginners that beta software is expected to have a few bugs, or these "beginners" are getting themselves in over their heads and then relying on the forum to bail them out.

personally, i think that too many new users have an unfounded need to download the latest (not necessarily greatest) software out there without a full understanding of the risks and responsibilities involved with beta testing.

i think an announcement, similar to Brunellus' warning about Beryl and Compiz (which is an entirely different, but not altogether unrelated, story) should be posted on this subject in the absolute beginner section.

sincerely, and with concern, daniel

dbbolton said: it seems that a lot of beginners post threads about how such-and-such breaks in feisty. the last i heard, feisty is beta. therefore, i feel that only experienced users who are serious about *testing* or perhaps even *contributing* (i.e. - filing helpful bug reports), not "absolute beginners" who need a solid and dependable system, should be using feisty. in fact, if a beginner asked me which version he/she should pick, i would suggest dapper.

but dapper "just isn't cool" anymore.

I think to be honest, mostly, I agree with you, except, I would recommend Dapper if they were looking at paid support, otherwise Edgy, or whatever is the current version. Simply because in community support, I reckon you up your odds a little by sticking with the (most) current release.

either it is not clear to beginners that beta software is expected to have a few bugs, or these "beginners" are getting themselves in over their heads and then relying on the forum to bail them out.

personally, i think that too many new users have an unfounded need to download the latest (not necessarily greatest) software out there without a full understanding of the risks and responsibilities involved with beta testing.

i think an announcement, similar to Brunellus' warning about Beryl and Compiz (which is an entirely different, but not altogether unrelated, story) should be posted on this subject in the absolute beginner section.

sincerely, and with concern, danielThere are several such warnings about. There really is a limit to what you can do, without coming off as condescending and really just plain rude! If software goes on general release, beta or not, people will use it. They will especially use it if they think they have support if needed. I don't think we're in the business of turning people away, at least I hope not. Have a read around, there are a few choice "i told you so' comments following such happenings. None of them are constructive after the event though.

Some problems, even if coming from beginners, can help in development. After all people are using Beryl too, it is not stable yet. Let people enjoy Linux.

adam.tropics said: I think to be honest, mostly, I agree with you, except, I would recommend Dapper if they were looking at paid support, otherwise Edgy, or whatever is the current version. Simply because in community support, I reckon you up your odds a little by sticking with the (most) current release.

There are several such warnings about. There really is a limit to what you can do, without coming off as condescending and really just plain rude! If software goes on general release, beta or not, people will use it. They will especially use it if they think they have support if needed. I don't think we're in the business of turning people away, at least I hope not. Have a read around, there are a few choice "i told you so' comments following such happenings. None of them are constructive after the event though.

i haven't seen any warnings in the Absolute Beginner section. if they exist, they are being ignored.

dptxp said: Some problems, even if coming from beginners, can help in development. After all people are using Beryl too, it is not stable yet.

Let people enjoy Linux.

i think that there is a difference between issuing a clear and friendly warning and preventing people from enjoyment.

I'm a noobie and i've installed fiesty about 5 times on two machines ( got to love spare hard drives, video cards, wireless adaptors, routers) and i've had fun learning and trying to get the the installs to work on my machines. but I do it with the understanding when it breaks I get to keep all pieces!

I installed edgy over a legit xp pro install in error (oops) and after getting wireless, acpi fan, shut down issues, usb hard drive owner change, video codecs ect. its rock stable and i haven't looked back... even my daughter asked if i'll install ubuntu on her tecra 8000 (i have a spare 8000 to test it on first) knowing full well the small problems i had on my satellite pro 4300 install i'd go through the same again things putting 7.04 on it thank you. I've gotten to hate fixing xp installs (wife to me my desktop freezes now and then) would you look at it? (I'm not a noob with xp just so you know) now to convert the wife...

p.s. i've installed and repaired everything from dos to os2-warp to xp and I build and repair my own and other peoples machines. I have seen the warnings.

Moral of my rant... listen to us, help us, knowing full well you can't please all of us with the hope you will convert some and they if pleased will convert others.

I would agree with you on that. There should be warnings here and there, especially on the download section. There's a reason why it's called Herd or Beta.

dbbolton said: it seems that a lot of beginners post threads about how such-and-such breaks in feisty. the last i heard, feisty is beta. therefore, i feel that only experienced users who are serious about *testing* or perhaps even *contributing* (i.e. - filing helpful bug reports), not "absolute beginners" who need a solid and dependable system, should be using feisty. in fact, if a beginner asked me which version he/she should pick, i would suggest dapper.

LOL dbbolton.

Assessing a new OS is more complex then that. A (short) list includes hardware and intended software needs of the user.

IMO the best version for new users is that version which recognizes most, if not all hardware. Feisty is just one more tool in the armormentarium and certainly an improvement for restricted formats.

but dapper "just isn't cool" anymore.

either it is not clear to beginners that beta software is expected to have a few bugs, or these "beginners" are getting themselves in over their heads and then relying on the forum to bail them out.

Well, it is not as if there are no questions on the forums regarding Dapper or Edgy. Why should Feisty be any different ?

IMO the purpose of the forums is to provide community support and assist new users, not police what version of Ubuntu they choose or whether they chose to file bug reports. Filing bug reports, although nice, is not a requirement of running any version of Ubuntu.

personally, i think that too many new users have an unfounded need to download the latest (not necessarily greatest) software out there without a full understanding of the risks and responsibilities involved with beta testing.

I would agree with this. There is a tendency for new users to aptitude update && aptitude upgrade too often with no good reason.

i think an announcement, similar to Brunellus' warning about Beryl and Compiz (which is an entirely different, but not altogether unrelated, story) should be posted on this subject in the absolute beginner section.

sincerely, and with concern, daniel

IMO the current system is sufficiently clear. Feisty is listed as Beta and, IMO, we all know what Beta means.

If the Ubuntu developers choose to make a beta version (in this case) Feisty available, then users are free to download and run it if they choose.

The Ubuntu Forums are open to all.

IMO, Open source = Free as in Freedom

dbbolton said: it seems that a lot of beginners post threads about how such-and-such breaks in feisty. the last i heard, feisty is beta. therefore, i feel that only experienced users who are serious about *testing* or perhaps even *contributing* (i.e. - filing helpful bug reports), not "absolute beginners" who need a solid and dependable system, should be using feisty. in fact, if a beginner asked me which version he/she should pick, i would suggest dapper.

I agree in principle, but I wonder if that is the correct way to go at present. I would rather have "rank noobs" filing bug reports and getting help, than have then install edgy only to find that on April 19th their install is now "old hat" and they have to go through dist-upgrade growing pains.

but dapper "just isn't cool" anymore.

Was it cool when it was released? I don't think a LTS version should ever be cool, really. Functional, stable, solid, feature complete...but exciting? Maybe in the sense that everything works....I guess that is exciting. :)

either it is not clear to beginners that beta software is expected to have a few bugs, or these "beginners" are getting themselves in over their heads and then relying on the forum to bail them out.

So, we bail them out. We grow, they grow, it's all good. It's pretty clear that beta means beta, and if they are going to use it, they should know it will break.

At least we tell people up front it is a beta in the Linux community. :)

personally, i think that too many new users have an unfounded need to download the latest (not necessarily greatest) software out there without a full understanding of the risks and responsibilities involved with beta testing.

Since it is many of these folks first foray into Linux, I don't think they know what beta testing means. That is ok, we can teach them that too.

The linux community puts alot of stock in getting the latest and greatest: every OS version has to have Beryl, the latest kernel, and all the bells and whistles. Why should we expect anything different here?

i think an announcement, similar to Brunellus' warning about Beryl and Compiz (which is an entirely different, but not altogether unrelated, story) should be posted on this subject in the absolute beginner section.

Good point. I'm all for disclaimers...but is anyone reading them? I mean, Brunellus put the Beryl warning up there (Beryl can trash your PC, kill puppies, and destabilize whole market structures) and it did little, if anything, to stem the flow of posts.

So I agree, "we" (that is, the community) should do something, but I think we are already doing it.

I'd suggest we suggest a stable release-as I'm sure that new users and beta breakages will be put off. Also unless their hardware requires a newly released feature we are creating unreliability and support requests without any great benefit to the new user or ubuntu. I would suggest that if new users want to play with a beta then it should only be suggested in addition to booting a stable release.

Sorry for not reacting on this any earlier ... but hope nevertheless that I still can contribute to what I think is a valid discussion.

IMHO all we have to do is make very clear what the status is of the various releases. Which AFAIK is that Dapper is the latest stable LTS release, Edgy the latest (non LTS) stable release and Feisty the "unstable" (beta) release.

Being new to the Ubuntu Forums does not make you a novice (I have something against the words n00b or newb, they have a negative ring to them) by default. Sure there will be that are installing a Linux distro for the first time, but others may have been around for a long time and are just first time installers of Ubuntu. Myself for example like to try out new releases just to see what is happening and as such have also Feisty and Elive (unstable) running. If I try a new release and sign up for a respective forum that does not make me -- by default -- novice, does it?

Concluding I think all we need to do is indicate the status and in relation to that maybe the level of experience we believe is required for working with this (hereby implicitly indicating the potential risk if you go for something that maybe over your head).

Just my 0.02 (keep the change ;))

I think that once a developmental release hits "Beta" status it should be considered officially supported by the Ubuntu Beginners Team.

After all, most of us use that release anyway, and once it's Beta, most of the major bugs are gone.

Yeah, I think in reality, whilst the team may find it easier in a structure sense to put in place some guidelines, the truth of it is I can't see us specifically 'refusing' to help, regardless of how bleeding edge people go. There may be a frown or two, (!) but really, all beginners are supported, regardless. (IMHO)

Those trying to migrate to Linux on their own are generally the adventurous kind. Most still use Windows and use Linux in dual boot configuration as an alternate OS. Till Linux replaces Windows completely on these desktops, users are not too keen for stability, Linux is fun.

So let us not discourage beginners from trying the alpha or beta, let the forums be full of life. Let us not try to contain Ubuntu as just another OS.

my whole perception of the 'absolute beginner' section was that it is for basic, simple questions. i think that any dealings with experimental software are beyond the basics. if "novices" expect more than is warranted of unstable software, then they probably haven't been informed properly. if advanced users are getting stumped, then they should probably look for help in more advanced places- perhaps even getting involved with launchpad.

it seems at times that some people are getting into more advanced stuff, and still posting in ABT because it probably has the most traffic of any area on the forum. this is a problem, imo, because it distracts attention from new users who truly need help learning basic things about ubuntu.

examples of what i consider to be genuine beginner questions: "i was trying to install a theme and is says the archive is invalid. what should i do?" "where are programs installed?" "how can i do such-and-such with the terminal?"

examples of what i don't consider to be beginner questions: "some piece of hardware doesn't work right after updating to feisty. why?" "i want to tweak a few kernel parameters in feisty, but i'm afraid of breaking something. how can i do this?"

Then maybe what we should do is make sure we still provide help to those who post irrelevant topics but also to not forget to remind them that if they post this question in the more appropriate forum, they will get a more appropriate and accurate response. Help them out, but make them feel a bit guilty as well. Even if each of us adding that extra line to our responses may drive only 10% to the appropriate forum, it is still 10% more focus we can give on relevant beginner issues.

dbbolton said: my whole perception of the 'absolute beginner' section was that it is for basic, simple questions. i think that any dealings with experimental software are beyond the basics. if "novices" expect more than is warranted of unstable software, then they probably haven't been informed properly. if advanced users are getting stumped, then they should probably look for help in more advanced places- perhaps even getting involved with launchpad.

it seems at times that some people are getting into more advanced stuff, and still posting in ABT because it probably has the most traffic of any area on the forum. this is a problem, imo, because it distracts attention from new users who truly need help learning basic things about ubuntu.

Well, I agree with the general gist of what you are saying about advanced threads/questions in ABT. but again, IMO this issue should be divorced from Feisty (Beta testing).

In terms of the title of this thread "beginners and feisty", I think the Beginners team should provide information regarding the various flavors (versions) of Ubuntu, but otherwise I think our stance should be neutral. Version selection is dependent on :[*]Hardware, hardware, hardware.

• Software.

• Purpose ~ Cutting edge beryl graphics, desktop, server ???

• User preference ~ Some want stable, others want bleeding edge.

Feisty is not more complex or more difficult then LTS/Edgy and in fact, IMO is faster, more stable, and (at least in terms of multimedia) easier. I am very impressed with Feisty and would advise it to a new user who is interested in Beryl and multimedia.

Do I advise most new users to beta test, NO . Here again I'll bet we are in agreement.

But some new users prefer to be on the cutting edge and they should not be discouraged.

siciliancasanova said: Then maybe what we should do is make sure we still provide help to those who post irrelevant topics but also to not forget to remind them that if they post this question in the more appropriate forum, they will get a more appropriate and accurate response. Help them out, but make them feel a bit guilty as well. Even if each of us adding that extra line to our responses may drive only 10% to the appropriate forum, it is still 10% more focus we can give on relevant beginner issues.

IMO this is the proper response. Answer the question, if you can, but be sure to direct the poster/questioner to appropriate sub-forums (server talk or what have you).

Yes, ABT is an active forum, but overly technical questions in ABT tend to go unanswered and should be referred to the appropriate forum.

Also mods will move threads if they are in the "wrong section". This happens all the time. So I would assume if a thread is left in ABT the mods feel that is the best place for the thread...

Adding into the issue of beta software, some users upgrade looking for a resolution for bugs.

For instance, I was having trouble with BitTornado, and there was a new version which fixed the issue, but it simply wasn't available for install through apt-get until I upgraded to Edgy.

Still another problem with upgrading is in the difference between Linux and Windows cultures. Under Windows, if an update comes out, no matter what it is, you download it because (on the positive side) you are assured by M$ that your system will work better if you load it, or (at the negative) you are assured that if you *don't* update, your system will no longer work.

In Linux, all upgrades are optional, so you get to choose, yet someone moving over from the Windows culture upgrades as soon as something new presents itself because of that previous understanding of when and why to upgrade!

Someone earlier mentioned people venturing into Linux territory alone are adventurous souls, but I'd add they sometimes have no other alternative. I am surrounded by Windows experts, but no-one near me is expert at Linux. Either I experiment with Linux alone or I do not experiment with Linux, period. Almost everything I've learned about Linux and everything I've learned about Ubuntu I've learned from these forums.

Well Feisty is upon us :)

This link may be helpful :

http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Feisty

Now we can debate "beginners and gusty" :lolflag:

Hey all

I hope you dont mind me wading in here as a beginner.

I have been using ubuntu for about a year, on and off, so im probably not an 'Absolute Beginner'.

I read with interest your remarks about Beginners and Feisty, and i can understand the difficulties.

Now, I was one of the million n00bz who posted an nvidia card driver update/ blank screen problem.

I think it illustrates 'where i am at' quite well. This is probably not an 'Absolute Beginner' Problem, I agree.

But, there is a level 'inbetween', in that i know how to add programs, i know how to install, etc.

But, i searched for my solution to removing my drivers.

And i got several answers.

Some of them involved (what appeared to me to be) installing the older drivers, and removing the new ones.

Some of the involved (what appeared to me to be ) installing new drivers.

Some of them invoved (what appeared to me to be) editing the xorg.conf to make the new drivers work.

Now, I cant be sure what the solutions are saying. And i KNEW how to get to a terminal, and i KNEW roughly how to find the file, but, for instance, i had no idea how to use vi, and i had no idea there were other programs available (like nano? which i think will be easier to use?)

So I guess what im saying is the more we learn, the more we have to learn, and its only through doing something stupid that we learn ;)

Personally, i like running into little problem, cause the only way i will learn how to use nano/vi and tweak/ install drivers from the command line is through making these sorts of mistakes.

Perhaps it means im over-reaching my current level of ability, but like someone mentioned earlier, a spirit of adventure is what makes someone install linux - without knowing anything about it - in the first place.

I'm not sure what my point is, but what I think would be useful, is possibly when posting a reply, rather than saying

sudo gedit /etc/apt/fstab 

then add /dev/hda.... etc to i personally would find it most useful if everyone went through things...

ie... fstab is a file where..... gedit is a program that.... /etc is the directory where...

because, if we read the manual on ALL these things, we'd never get past login

You guys to a great job, have remarkable patience, and I thankyou for all you past and future help

drowner.

Hello, I'm new to computers started with 98 then went to XP and now with Linux. Using a duel boot with the help of Wubi. I have to say using Feisty more than XP. It's new to me, and trying to learn as much as I can, I find the forums to be a wealth of information. What works on my system or systems, for I have VL installed on another computer, may not work for someone else. Without the feedback that one can receive from the experienced people out there is invaluable for us "Beginners". We all started out as beginners at some point.

acowboydave said: Hello, I'm new to computers started with 98 then went to XP and now with Linux. Using a duel boot with the help of Wubi. I have to say using Feisty more than XP. It's new to me, and trying to learn as much as I can, I find the forums to be a wealth of information. What works on my system or systems, for I have VL installed on another computer, may not work for someone else. Without the feedback that one can receive from the experienced people out there is invaluable for us "Beginners". We all started out as beginners at some point.

did you notice that this thread was started when feisty was still in its testing stage?

Hello, no that slipped by me. I just wanted to express my views, as new to Linux, forums I feel are to help us. The posts should be placed in there perspective area, as far as experimental or not tried software we all help to make it better. I saw a post that was good and thought it should be brought into the light again. Thanks

The first time I installed Ubuntu it was Breezy. I got the cd from a magazine that ranted how this was rated as the best Linux Distribution (Applause Here for all). I installed and immediately started having problems. The Ubuntu Distribution was rated not only on the software but also on the forum. The ability to get your problem resolved online. This is what makes Ubuntu different and Better. Give out the warnings and the software. But most of all give the support that the new user needs. And remember this was you at one time. Remember that person who its seemed that went out of his way to help you? Try to be that person for several somebodys. You might find them giving you help someday.

It would be a great benifit to the new user to know where you found the answer to his or her problem and how they can find answers on their own.